- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.
But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.
I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.
So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?
It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.
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Discord fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software.
Im looking forward to the full release of cosmic as I dont want to keep using hyprland. Sadly theming is incomplete and it’ll be a while before good themes get released.
Honestly I just stopped caring about developer’s personalities or political views. If you only use products made by nice guys who share your political views you won’t use anything in your life. Not even a phone.
All the VR users that care about this sort of thing better be aware of Oculus’ founder Palmer Luckey too. Their friends will be so sad when they stop showing up in VR chat
Well, I also have some bad news for the users of Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Meta, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Target, FedEx, Dell, Lowe’s, General Electric, Proctor & Gamble, IBM, Nvidia, AMD, Cisco, Publix, Intel, HP, United Airlines, Nike, Oracle, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Dow Chemical Company, Best Buy, Cargill, Koch Industries, H-E-B, Love’s, JPMorgan Chase, Johnson & Johnson,
…I could go on.
After reading a lot of the material I am not convinced the hyprland dev can reasonably be called a “fascist”.
It’s an interesting story, though.
WDYM? because being a bigot is not the sams as being a fascist?
yeah actually communist bigots exist, as do Anarcho bigots
yes. and catholic conservatives and neoliberals and social democrats whatnot
thanks for the downvotes. i would still like an answer to my questions
I think it’s really funny how in proprietary software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically harmed a business. But in free and open source software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically benefited the random individual that made the project.
It’s because proprietary software actually has value
(jk, I’m one of us)
If you like hyprland, use it. Just dont prompte it. Dont talk about it. Dont even mention it
Why? We like something. We share it. You may ignore it.
Because promoting hyprland is morally wrong? Its pretty simple
My morals come from my religion and not from some arbitrary standards set by a Western supremacist, who thinks their culture is superior to everyone else and the rest of the world is “primitive”. Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers. I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
Who is the Western supremacist in this scenario and what relationship do they have to morality? Kinda makes or breaks your whole argument
It is not tho
How much wrong does a person have to do for you to consider it morally wrong to promote the things they make?
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It’s FOSS, so using it doesn’t give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they’re unaware.
One might claim they’re being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they’re toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don’t have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the “user might donate if they’re unaware” is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there’s no guarantee they’ll keep the caveat (in fact I’d consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I’d say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I’d say “its a bit of a Nazi bar thing”.
Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He originally got a wrist slap by FDO saying don’t do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like “SJWs are coming for me”.
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
The entire argument is that you can’t make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him? He should have gone full tilt and made a list of slurs you should be allowed to say beyond just arguing for the R-slur. That would have really convinced people he’s not an extremely toxic right wing weirdo.
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
This was his non-apology where he says “lets be real” a lot which is a common way of just ignoring a criticism and then he follows it up with, I should have banned that user instead of doing what I did.
Asking for professionalism in the OSS community is not a huge deal. It’s also quite literally not even about the code AFAIR Drew Devault is still taking Vaxry’s patches. He just doesn’t want him in the community starting shit with people.
The “paradox of tolerance” is a concept I love to bring up time and time again.
No tolerance for the intolerant, lest intolerants take over tolerant spaces and turn them intolerant.
Social contract not a moral imperative.
Or seen as a repeated prisoners dilemma, play tit-for-tat, or maybe (N*tit)-for-tat (where N gives a ‘punitive’ damages expectation for breching the accepted norms).
Quite a lot of lefties don’t like thinking about what is “rational” though because “people aren’t cognitively rational” so rationality based social equilibia can obviously never have any relevance.
Can you elaborate on the last part of your comment? I’m not sure I fully understand, though it sounds like we mostly agree.
I’m not sure why you threw in that digression about political leaning at the end, though. It makes your last statement pretty vague.
I don’t see it as a paradox, but as rational. But there are people who I think do hold tolerance as some sort of moral compulsion, and get offended by the notion that it might just emerge from people figuring out how and why to cooperate, without any high and mighty guiding morality.
These people will also object to using rational models to understand/describe human behaviours, because they can point to many examples of people acting irrationally. Many of these examples are psychology lab “experiments” so are irrelevant to the real world. But plenty of real examples of things like loss aversion and risk (mis)percepion, sunk costs, time-inconsistent decisions and so on where individuals clearly do behave “irrationally”.
I often come across people who believe that this undermines anything any “rational model” has to say. And so I do try to use such reasoning with those people, or even challenge those observations with examples where collective rationality does seem to emerge as a social (not individual) phenomenon, then I’ll be derided as some sort of neo-conservative capitalist fascist or whatever.
So I find that it’s generally good practice to chuck in some insult about one type of political zealot or other every so often, so as to quickly establish where I stand. I’d rather be vague than waste my breath with zealots.
I don’t really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I’m still here
at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway
Fr, you can disagree with someone and still make use of the software they create. Especially because you’re not even directly supporting them monetarily.
lemmy is not a great comparison, there’s like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.
i don’t think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not “as bad” as building killing machines, but it’s the same principle: looking the other way when it’s convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance
Great, yeah, both sides are the same huh? Grow a spine.
The software itself does not harm anyone, considering it is free software and nobody has to contribute money to use it, i don’t care. If you feel so outraged by it, fork the software and develop your own version. At least with free software you have that option, as opposed to proprietary software where you have no option.
I’m not using Hyperland personally, but i’m not opposed to people using it.
Nobody said both sides are the same. Grow a spine
I’d rather not get banned from this community by arguing that.
At any rate that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the political views don’t matter, the software does and its great
Luckily there’s programming.dev which I hope will be the go to lemmy for programming
Too bad it’s American.
Oh :/
It is a quandary.
I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi’s are terrible and I don’t want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed, and I’m not so certain that function supports Nazi ideals. If I purchased the gas can from a Nazi, then it would, but nothing is being purchased in the case of Hyprland as far as I am aware.
I don’t know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.
In short, you can have massive, entirely valid criticisms of the evil deeds of a person, but that does not necessarily fault everything they invent or touch, even if we would like it to. This is the crux of the Composition/Division logical fallacy if I am not mistaken, which is where we make an assumption that what is true about part of something must be applied to the rest of it without exception.
In this instance, the inventor may be evil but it does not automatically mean that their inventions are inherently evil.
If there are criticisms of Hyprland, the software itself - then it is a different matter.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
I feel like this is kind of a misnomer about how FOSS software gets developed. for one the Vaxry guy is basically the only active dev of Hyprland and if you look at for example the GitHub contribution breakdown he has worked much more on Hyprland stuff than all the other contributors combined. Since this kind of work is essentially free labor for no return simply forking the project and continuing Hyprland without him is infeasible IMO - other Wayland compositors already exist, like sway or niri and some even try to fill the same niche as Hyprland like swayfx (i.e. eye candy effects and smooth animations), so I don’t really see a reason to fork Hyprland when those other compositors can do similar things while already being in active development.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Hyprland is actively being developed by a fascist and that fascist is actively being platformed within the FOSS community through it. I think that is also what OP is trying to say, it doesn’t matter if Hyprland is “good” or “bad” software.
I see. Thanks for expanding on the conversation with this thoughtful reply.
Your reply was also appreciated, thank you.
I don’t care, i care for the tech. I don’t need to make friends with the devs of the tech nor give them my money.
They have different political views than me, yes. Does it affect the tech they develop? Not in my opinion.
Fascism is not an opinion.
Fixed that, you are correct.
Still, I don’t care if they are gay or straight communist or fascist, black yellow white or gray. Software is a tool and its apolitical.
Fascism isnt a political view either. Conservatism is a political view. It also cant be viewed the same as communism or socialism. One is based on feeding, housing and helping everyone while the other is tied to discriminating, abusing and even killing people of different ethnicity and ability.
Fascism isnt a political view either
uhhhh no? its authoritarian capitalism. Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he’s the guy who started it
Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he’s the guy who started it
That’s not what corporatism is, it’s a different meaning of the word “corporation”.
You’re absolutely correct that fascism is an illiberal capitalist ideology, but Mussolini framed their movement as pro-labour, not pro-capitalist. We must learn to recognize Classical Fascism’s class-collaborationist hypothesis as flawed and pro-capitalist, especially since this rhetoric is often echoed in social democracy.
Fuck hyprland
All my homies hate hyprland
And on that note, I condemn in the harshest terms the response from communities like /r/linux on the subject. The vile harassment and hate directed at the FDO officer in question is obscene and completely unjustifiable. I don’t care what window manager or desktop environment you use – this kind of behavior is completely uncalled for. I expect better.
momentYou probably don’t care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don’t really care about this is that I only have the “drama” second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry’s version of the story which cannot be trusted because that’s conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading “hitpieces” on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he’s got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, “that’s good for children”)
So it’s just too foggy for me. Well I don’t promote Hyprland because I don’t care about my computer’s “looks” and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that’s a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.
edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order. Also the Drew video relies on indirect evidence but for me it’s fairly convincing.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdMw
You call man a bigot and you make a drama publicly because you can’t stand how he can have a different opinion or way of living than you, right? Guess that makes you… a bigot? 😉
I made myself a promise to donate to Hyprland and Vaxry every time I see bad press against him. And I just made another payment. He makes good software and this is something he should concentrate on and just like many others on this thread: I don’t care if he has one opinion or the other. You don’t like it? Just don’t engage with him, his Discord or Hyprland, let the guy have his space.
Or make another bad press and make me donate again, I’ll happily do that💪🏻
Owning the libs by giving a fascist transphobe all my money
I wouldn’t’ve gunned down those minors from ethnic minorities if the leftist SJWs didn’t have so many pronouns!!!
You also donate to the KKK? How’s your investment in anti-trans communities going so far, what’s the ROI? Happy with all the hatred you are fueling?
If you honestly throw KKK and Vaxry into the same bucket then I guess it speaks for yourself: as for me, I’m not going deeper into conversation if this is how it starts ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I didn’t do it. He did that himself, he [pretty much, in other words] said:
“I’m fine with a genocidal transphobe homophobe racist antisemite literal murderer being welcomed of my software community if he was alive now. As long as he keeps his crimes against humanity off the main focus: my project and my project alone.”
What’s Hyprland?
its a window manager for Linux
I see. Thanks!
yeah the only thing it makes me think about is the bbc special with tom baker talking about what hypertext could be like before it was really anything.
Find a better cause than this nothing burger. Literally nothing better to do but complain about some old discussion. God forbid you forgive and move on. No you said something that offended me years ago and I will not forgive such a terrible transgression. This 'look at me" posting is so tiring. Look at how great I am. Don’t worry everyone I’ll fall on the sword and call out the bad people.
but complain about some old discussion
I wouldnt think 2 years is old, and its not like he changed his mind since then, in any capacity. what he did can’t really be forgiven, except if you don’t care about the safety of your peers. yes, I said safety, because people like vaxry often find joy in harming… anyone they don’t like.
Forgive my ignorance, but what did he do?
How long is enough, apologies dont matter either right? If you actually spend the time to read the infraction and response you’ll see people are just bored and looking to make themselves feel important by randomly posting stuff like this unprompted.
