- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Stumbled across this quick post recently and thought it was a really good tale and worth sharing.
A couple of weeks ago, I saw a tweet asking: “If Linux is so good, why aren’t more people using it?” And it’s a fair question! It intuitively rings true until you give it a moment’s consideration. Linux is even free, so what’s stopping mass adoption, if it’s actually better? My response:
- If exercising is so healthy, why don’t more people do it?
- If reading is so educational, why don’t more people do it?
- If junk food is so bad for you, why do so many people eat it?
The world is full of free invitations to self-improvement that are ignored by most people most of the time. Putting it crudely, it’s easier to be fat and ignorant in a world of cheap, empty calories than it is to be fit and informed. It’s hard to resist the temptation of minimal effort.
And Linux isn’t minimal effort. It’s an operating system that demands more of you than does the commercial offerings from Microsoft and Apple. Thus, it serves as a dojo for understanding computers better. With a sensei who keeps demanding you figure problems out on your own in order to learn and level up.
Now I totally understand why most computer users aren’t interested in an intellectual workout when all they want to do is browse the web or use an app. They’re not looking to become a black belt in computing fundamentals.
But programmers are different. Or ought to be different. They’re like firefighters. Fitness isn’t the purpose of firefighting, but a prerequisite. You’re a better firefighter when you have the stamina and strength to carry people out of a burning building on your shoulders than if you do not. So most firefighters work to be fit in order to serve that mission.
That’s why I’d love to see more developers take another look at Linux. Such that they may develop better proficiency in the basic katas of the internet. Such that they aren’t scared to connect a computer to the internet without the cover of a cloud.
Besides, if you’re able to figure out how to setup a modern build pipeline for JavaScript or even correctly configure IAM for AWS, you already have all the stamina you need for the Linux journey. Think about giving it another try. Not because it is easy, but because it is worth it.
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I started using Linux as a liberal arts major in the late '90s. Both my grandparents (RIP) and my parents (partial RIP) kept having issues with Windows on their computers. I was constantly being called to help them with crap. 20+ years ago I asked if I could try something and they didn’t care, as long as it worked. Debian and XFCE. Configured their email, hooked up the printer. Suddenly the service issues went from several times a week to once every 5+ years. And 90% of those issues just was clearing out the printer queue. I have never once understood the LiNuX iS OnlY FoR suPer TeCH NeRDS bullshit.
You’re right in that case - most “granny” users just need a browser and maybe a printer. Don’t need Windows, you could probably run that on a Raspberry.
The catch is when they want more, like their VoIP App that only hat Mac and Windows installers, or some arcane HP scanner with 32 bit Windows 7 drivers. Or they are competent and want an actual full MS Office suite including Excel formulas and functions; Calc is still not on par. Or, kicker, if they actually need to exchange Office files with others without lossy conversions.
Everytime I’d installed Linux, I would run into having to run/copy paste random scripts here and there without any clue what I’m doing. Then after a few months it’s total carnage and I end up just logging into Windows. It might be much better now with LLM’s though. Also last time I was using my pc mostly to play CS:GO on FaceIt while chatting on Discord, which I was not able to do on linux.
Well android uses Linux I found out.
Yes, I think the biggest hurdle for Linux is the tech crowd giving it a reputation for being difficult
What if I need a program that is only available for windows?
If such an awful thing ever happpened to me in my personal life I’d change my needs.
In work of course I’m fucked, by stupidity rather than needs of course, but at least that’s only for 37.5 hours a week.
Like what? They all have linux versions, alternatives or work with wine, the main issue is sub based window ones since the way they verify licenses often has issues with wine. Im assuming you’re missing out on adobe or autodesk stuff?
If the programs cpu heavy its suprisingly not that hard to setup windows qemu whatever its called, it opens windows app as native linux windows even tho its an emulation it looks cleaner, but I had issues getting my gpu to work and even if it does I think your linux screen goes black when in use, it was just a hassle and trying to connect the gpu made me need to reset my linux install since my discrete gpu wouldnt work and I had no idea why. Worked fine til I tried to connect my discrete gpu and is very useful for cpu based programs.
This is not straightforward for the average user. There’s plenty of commercial or niche software that has no real alternative in Linux land. CAD being one - and I’m well aware of freecad, and I love it, but it ain’t a pro tool yet.
What average user uses CAD? I think you are conflating what an average user requires.
Type of user that uses/ want to swap to linux is more likely to be into cad compared to the average window user, just more tech related hobbies
The app may be windows only, but it can often help to ask for alternative. And not things like “What can I use in Linux that is the same as <app> under Windows”. More along the lines of “I need to create or do <x>. In Windoze I used <app>, how do I get the same work done under Linux”. Sometimes you don’t have much of a choice, go emulation layer or VM, but often you can find a different path to the same result and once you get used to it, it’s often a better solution.
- You may not actually need that app. There are many alternatives to Windows-only apps. 95% of the time, I use those. Web apps or Linux native apps.
or 2) you switch back to Windows when you really need that one app. Odds are, over time, you realize it’s actually #1.
I’m in the same boat, adobe can get fucked
compatibility layers makes 99% software work
or try a virtual windows instance if performace is not critical
Yeah, but for non-technical people this is an insurmountable barrier. My aunt isn’t “trying a virtual machine”.
the setup is straightfoward
people are just allergic to the terminal
you aunt can get a windows instance setup by someone competent and use that instance forever
Because I need something that works 100% of the time and supports all the software I need to use. I loved playing around with alternative os’s when I was younger, but it’s mostly for fun, to see if I can learn something, not for being productive.
Ive had way more problems getting things to work or with things just breaking for no reason with windows than i have with linux. People are so disingenuous with their ‘windows just works’ bullshit. Windows is a steaming hot pile of garbage that loves to fuck with you in completely irrational ways, while at least linux is predictable.
That is why I stick with Linux if I can. Last place I worked I kinda had to use windows and it was a pain. The options for having all the software I needed was WSL or using the Linux servers. The servers had lag, specially over VPN and WSL was constantly crashing. As well as the whole OS and that shit that was teams.
100% of the time? Alternative OS? Do you think there’s one OS and that’s windows? Do you think people who need something to work 100% of the time choose Microsoft?
I’ll give an alternative opinion.
Im a software engineer and have been doing it for many years. I’m comfortable with various Linux distros. I build software for and deploy software to various Linux instances. I maintain Linux systems and overall like using Linux for these purposes.
When I come home, I turn on my windows PC and it just works. I don’t want to maintain a Linux system at home because it feels like work and I don’t want to work at home. Yes, most days I’d not need to do anything, but some days I would. And those days I’d prefer not to.
It is less about not wanting intellectual exercise and more about already having worked out today, so I’d rather relax with junk food and watch Netflix.
I do first level tech support for a living and help people with Windows and Microsoft products.
When I come home, I turn on my Linux PC and it just works. I don’t want to maintain a Windows system at home because it feels like work and I don’t want to work at home.
You two should move in together!
I get the sentiment of your point, and it’s a fair one. But I have found it to not really hold up to scrutiny anymore. Once I became familiar with Linux at a very base level, I found it ‘‘just works’’ more often than Windows. Especially for the ‘‘just relax, eat junk food and watch netflix’’ style of using a computer.
Like, in that sense, I feel like I have to ‘‘maintain’’ Windows more often, in that I am constantly having to get it out of my way (i.e. turn off adds, deal with automatic updates, etc). My daily use Linux install works the same every day I turn it on.
Don’t get me wrong, I get that learning a new system is harder than dealing with the problems of the one you already know. But if you can use Windows and Linux, and don’t require some proprietary software on Windows, Linux seems to be way ahead in the ‘‘it just works, and works predictably and easy’’ category imho.
I agree about windows maintenance. Mint has been easier and more stable than windows for me. The biggest hurdles were getting it set up - partitioning, mounting drives, etc. In windows that just happens.
But, actual day-to-day operation? Much easier in Mint.
What issues are you all talking about? I m a Linux user for eleven years now, the only issues you may have with them are only in the beginning when everything is not installed or sometimes not everything is perfectly installed and set up, once you finish with that you may get bored by how extremely stable they are, you just do your work and that’s it, and they stay like that forever, the only reason people are using windows is because they are pre installed, that’s the only truth.
when everything is not installed or sometimes not everything is perfectly installed and set up
I guess that’d be a major blocker for most people.
To be fair, i installed linux on an old laptop and i just cannoy get the wifi to be reliable. I found myself reading about the minutia of intel wifi drivers and how wifi works in detail just to try tonsolve this issue.
I outright gave up on getting a printer to work.
This is an unrealistic experience for most people who just need a tool that works. Life is too short.
There are thousands of distros out there, pick another, I m sure one of them will work with WiFi just fine
See, that’s an adventure for months of late night tinkering.
Or just boot Windows and it will auto detect everything just fine. Done and done.
Not everyone is an adventurer. Most people just want to get on with it.
Lmao, yeah I love living like Indiana Jones! get real dude, we speak about a couple of hours work and that’s it
To be fair, i installed linux on an old laptop and i just cannoy get the wifi to be reliable. I found myself reading about the minutia of intel wifi drivers and how wifi works in detail just to try tonsolve this issue.
I had this exact experience. I tried multiple distros too. In the end I had to go back to windows because that’s the only way the wifi worked short of replacing hardware and it just wasn’t worth that.
A 5 to 15 dollar USB dongle was too much for you? There used to be a time when people understood they would need to buy compatible hardware for the OS. We’re not just talking Windows to Linux here, this same thing happens between Windows versions. Imagine switching to MacOS from Windows or to Windows from MacOS. “Guess MacOS doesn’t work on my Windows hardware. Whelp, back to Windows.”
Or he could just go back to an OS that works.
Thrse are real issues that block adoption of linux on the desktop. The answer isnt buy different hardware, its “how do we improve on things like this?”
A USB WiFi adapter was easily $100 at the time and besides, if I wanted to use dongles to achieve basic functionality I would have just bought an apple product.
Yep, makes sense. 1500 dollar Mac or a 100 dollar USB dongle. Logic checks out.
Little guys like this one were 5 dollars over ten years ago now. I know because this is the one I would tell folks upgrading from win7 or win8, to win10, to use when their wifi nic wasn’t supported. I also used them for my crypto miners.
because most people use what comes installed and apple and microsoft dominate that.
then again, considering apple is based on unix you could argue that anyone with apple does use a version of it
This is the obvious right answer. If computers shipped with Linux mint most consumers wouldn’t notice the difference.
Fuck DHH
Why? I don’t know much about this guy
Shit like this https://world.hey.com/dhh/are-we-past-peak-woke-c313b7d1
Because windows and Mac just works, without touching terminal for a single second! There is your .
That’s such a weird take, I’m not sure it’s not an attempt at rage baiting.
I’ve used Linux Mint for about ten years. I’ve used terminal once - only because that specific laptop had some trackpad or WiFi (can’t remember which) issue. I just typed in a few lines and that was it.
But most people do use Linux; Android is the most common OS, isn’t it?
Also guess what the Internet has always run on? *Nix.
The UIs and UXes in Linux are still shit and look like they are from 1998. Engineers are not great designers. I design UI and UX for windows and Linux for a living. I’m not professionally educated in design, but I know how to make a GUI look like it wasn’t a collab by Mattel and M.C Esher for use on a museum computer. That goes for apps and system features. The Bluetooth device GUI in Linux Mint is fuckawful.
Being able to consistently install things by downloading an exe from a website and just double click it is lacking.
The names of Linux software are also regularly dumb. Trying to be punny, clever, or cool. If it resized images, just call it Image Resized For Mint or something, not “Nautilus” or Nemo", they are forgettable and tell me nothing about the app “Uhh, it was something ocean themed, I think”. (This is true of Windows apps as well, Audacity, Figma Director, and Irfanview, I’m looking at you)
Apps “forgetting” the last-used settings, inc last used save file path, or user config, is a common issue too. Out of the box, apps should remember last-used settings without having to be told.
Window focus interfering with key capture is an issue too. Use Flameshot (a screen capture app) to take a region screenshot of a right-click context menu in another app - you can’t. Greenshots on windows does it fine.
I still persist with Mint, but the process is further from ‘Seamless’ than even windows 11, the shitshow it is.
Maybe I just hate all operating systems.
Kde plasma and gnome both look good, cachyos also has a nicer graphical installer than windows in a live os environment off the usb, can basically test the plasma ui without commiting
So fix it.
I can’t code lol
Why not mock up a bunch of dialogs/windows that linux mint uses now and show how they can be made better, then submit to the project? I’m a software dev that is not all that good with UI; I can do amazing things in terms of coding them up, but in terms of “pretty” or “logical”, its not my strength and you just need to team up with guys who can code very well. Gnome looks nice, but is a terrible project. If I was a mint dev I’d love the feedback to be honest. Don’t go out and design a replacement for everything, start with a few of the worst offendors and be polite and see where it goes, you don’t need to code to make a project successful, we need everybody from UI to translators to testers to marketing guys etc.
I don’t know how to submit design or get involved, but if be willing to do that. Do I need to join a group somewhere, or what?
I’d be happy to spend my spare time trying to improve the UX if I’m not wasting my time. I can even show a portfolio of my currently in-production work, which only totals about 15 seperate software apps across windows, Webapp, and android, but it’s something
My day-job is 50% technical writing, mostly writing software specs, and 50% UI/UX design for custom software used by aggressivly non-technical people, like warehouse staff, truck drivers, mechanics and mining exploration drillers. So I have to treat the users gently by giving them a clean, simple and intuitive design with just the right amount of guardrails, but tons of customisable functionality just under the surface. Many of my apps heavily rely on Bluetooth connections, which is why I’m picking on the Bluetooth interface. Average users are very intimidated by Bluetooth.
Never trained in either tech writing or design, and I’m not a design guru, but I understand enough to build consistent in design principles, easy to understand and use, and have rich functionality behind them.
Tell us what a good UI is
I’ll mock something up later and share my design.
FYI I didn’t downvote you or anyone else, Im not like that. There is just some downvote goblins getting around this thread
Being able to consistently install things by downloading an exe from a website and just double click it is lacking.
This is something I still have issues with. I’ve been running Mint on an old Mac mini for six or seven months now, and still have to think to remember what flavour of Linux it’s based on when trying to install software.
Then there’s the way it has software installed via the store, Flatpak, and the terminal, meaning I have multiple places that need software updates. And that doesn’t necessarily cover OS updates.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Mint, and I do enjoy the tinkering, but I kinda go by the “Could I put this on my mum’s laptop without her having trouble?” rule, and the answer is no. It’s close, but no.
KDE discover is one shop for all. You do update system, flatack, snap, addons and more with it. There is nothing to forget.
We have appimages too now
i mean with debian based instances you can basically do that with debs.
Well…
Don’t forget the common use issues, where to put file for startup in different distros, attaching external drive being able to access in all and every Software without touching terminal, not too have to use terminal at all for ANYTHING IN 2025
IMPOSSIBLE! But shhhhhhh , we are on Lemmy if you say Linux sucks you will be negatively marked , cause Linux is the best /s , gained 4% market share and what not Linux for consumers SUCKS! NO matter the distro
I’m perfectly happy using terminal, both in Linux and windows. But not for basic things like installing a simple program. Sure I’ve done this in windows using wget or whatever, but maybe like 5 times ever? Like 2% of the time requires terminal with a 90% success rate on first try, and 95% success when trying for half a day. With Mint, require using terminal it’s like, 80% of the time, with a 30% success rate, and maybe 40% success rate after dickimg about with the errors for half a day.
Look, I don’t take preference with sides. Windows, Linux, android, Mac, I’ll happily call them all out on their various bullshit.
It took me a while to work out that the reason so much of Linux goes through the terminal is because that’s what the people who build Linux are used to. They put little to no effort into UX, then grumble that more normies aren’t adopting Linux.
I got my first Macbook in 2007, and honestly don’t think I touched Terminal for maybe four years. It just wasn’t at all necessary for day to day use. So having to wrap my head around terminal commands in order to do so much in Mint is quite a head fuck.
Linux UX philosophy:
Let them eat ads
Man, I wish the Windows-only shop I support as a sysadmin “just worked.” I spend the majority of my time troubleshooting random Windows issues.
Driver issues, firmware issues, Teams breaking, Outlook breaking, SharePoint and OneDrive sync issues, Edge freezing/crashing, UI scaling issues, routine updates failing, random connectivity issues, random audio issues, printer issues…
I won’t lie, my Linux computers have random issues too, but way less often than the Windows machines I have to support every day. And when I encounter the Linux issues, I actually can fix them in a way that is permanent almost always.
Windows on the other hand, I typically fix and then the same problem starts happening again a few months later after an update, or the only “fix” that works is restarting the computer several times in a row.
To be fair to the Windows defenders, Windows 11 has easily been the worst for this in my experience. Windows 10 was more stable, and Windows 7 was even better. XP had lots of random issues, but back then you could still get under the hood pretty easily and make Windows do what you wanted.
Every personal device I have runs Linux and has for several years. I removed Windows completely from my life thank God, and I can’t imagine going back. I honestly would be more likely to stop using computers altogether before I went back to the horror show that is Windows/Microsoft.
See…
The RTFM condescending, contemptuous attitude doesn’t help.
A lot of us are not teens, or 20 somethings, and have other responsibilities and duties.
We just want the shit to “Just Work.” We don’t want to research why the last version upgrade broke the graphics driver, or why our printer doesn’t work anymore, or any of that stuff.
Granted, the distros that try to fix this have advanced light years over the last actual 20 years, but it’s still not good enough.
And yes, I have my “Compiled From Scratch Arch” membership card. Never again.
Have you tried driving without learning ?
Have you tried not trying to funny? Because you are not.
That’s why I’d love to see more developers take another look at Linux. Such that they may develop better proficiency in the basic katas of the internet. Such that they aren’t scared to connect a computer to the internet without the cover of a cloud.
I worked at a company building Unix. Later, it built a few releases of a Linux distro too. The people there were proficient documenters and app dev; build, release and support (escalation) devs; and some kernel devs so blindingly smart it made us normies’ tired just trying to keep up mentally.
Everyone used windows.
“Whot?!?” Yes, windows. Building Unix - the Unix - and a Linux distro, these super-capable black belts of the OS (borrowing your term) should be in Korn all day long.
Windows. WinAMP. VanDyke. Mozilla.
These people have the skill for it, but their preference was for windows. Because it was bad, but consistently so and presented a unified force to cope around.
I’ve worked on Linux my entire career, having used Linux since 94. But aside from a short window in 96, I’ve also done it with windows.
Windows. Spotify. Putty. SeaMonkey.
