The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
And yet… linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as “not growing the userbase”
RTFM is great when it covers the problem you’re having, but I’ve seen multiple times in various forums, when the problem isn’t covered by the manual or the solution isn’t immediately obvious, the user is just ignored entirely. Some people have a really weird “linux doesn’t have any issues, its the user’s fault” attitude.
Last year I got told to RTFM and was linked to a documentation page that said
STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Which was very helpful
People don’t have the time/will to research alternatives, that’s why most of us follow trends. It’s the old mantra “if is good enough for him…”, and honestly, i don’t feel to blame anyone. Computers by now are a necessary tool and people want an easy “switch an play” solution to use it.
I was on a reddit thread the other day which was about Microsoft ending the support for Windows 10. Naturally, I thought people would be boasting about Linux in that thread, but nope, people just want to keep using windows 10 or want Steam to release SteamOS. This was the PC Gaming sub too.
Years ago this is exactly what happened with Windows XP. I still see the odd one hanging around somehow. I suspect this will be very similar.
I finally switched to Linux, while Linux itself is just as easy to use as Windows, actually installing Linux can be a nightmare. When setup works properly its no harder than windows, the other 95% of the time its about chasing down an easily solved problem but you have to figure out which easily solved problem it is.
You described installing old windows, before update took care of drivers.
I install Linux on many machines each year, and I can’t even remember the last time I had a problematic installation. Your experience sounds quite unusual. Are you using some obscure distro?
I had the same experience until i bought an HP (Omen) gaming laptop a couple of years ago. Even regular Ubuntu didn’t boot from USB drive. I had to mess with some kernel parameters (ACPI or something) to even boot it. Unfortunately sometimes you have some hardware or weird bios that just doesn’t work. Never had this with any other laptop after
This may be due to manufacturers locking their machines down with Secure Boot and only installing the keys that allow it to boot Windows. It’s not something that could be fixed by the makers of the Linux install disk. They’d need to persuade the hardware manufacturer to preinstall their key.
Mint Cinnamon. It turned out just to be switching the name of a file on the boot media but it took a long time to work through other issues to get there.
I love Mint. It’s still my favorite Debian-rooted distro, even though I moved on from it more than a decade ago. But their refusal to adapt their install image to newbie-proof it frustrates me so much. I can’t think of another mainline distro that’s given me any problems in creating install media or installing, and that makes it impossible for me to recommended Mint to anyone who won’t have me over their shoulder during the install process.
I commend you for sticking to it and figuring out what the issue and fix were. 90% of users would have given up, reinstalled Windows, and went on Reddit to complain about how shitty Linux is.
I mean I did complain on lemmy about how annoying it was a few times, its a shame too because this problem turned out to be super simple and potentially super common, it would just take a couple of lines being changed on the official setup guide to resolve it… actually come to think of it since its just renaming a file all it would take is having 2 copies of that file in the image with both names since only one is ever going to be used at a time anyway.
For sure, you never lose your right to complain. But be fair to yourself too, even if you complained incessantly, you stuck it out (and what is a Linux user without incessant complaining?).
The point is what you said though, they could very easily solve an issue that could be preventing a large group of potential users from adopting… because the maintenance team doesn’t want to update the installation guide or the file names. Again, it’s a very Linux thing for them to take that position. And that’s why I end up recommending an Ubuntu spin to people, even though I think the whole package that Mint presents is nicer out of the box.
Strange, I was also on a thread about ending support, and I found (and upvoted) tons of comments about switching to Linux. Must have been from different communities.
I mean if people move to steamOS how is that not a win?
That is a win. I was just surprised to not see anyone just say any of the existing distros, you know, multiple solutions that already exist.
Windows has the excuse of being preinstalled everywhere. It makes it very hard to break system or to use the system in a way not blessed by Microsoft.
Linux is fairly easy to learn and gives you lots and lots of power.
It looks like everyone always forget about Chromebooks or kind of ignore them…
I like Chromebooks
I would use one if it wasn’t a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
I super hate Chromebooks. My mom gave my kid one and it’s ruining my life. I should have just binned it and gotten him a real laptop with mint or ubermix.
He has a computer now with ubermix, but it’s an uphill battle.
Tip, you can put full Linux on most chromebooks and chromeos devices. I’ve done it before mrchromebox.tech
I’ve tried and failed. I forget the particulars but I wasn’t able to get it to accept the change.
On mine I had to use a BIOS flasher tool since it was locked and Dev mode wasn’t allowed to be enabled (think it was due to enterprise enrollment), though flashing the image directly worked like a charm following the unbricking guide.
You could ask him what he wants
Best way to engage kids in tech is to give them options.
Oh I know what he wants. He wants me to put games on it. If I do it’ll wreck his sleep habits for life
Family link Is Great for that
Depending on his age that may or may not be acceptable. My parents used to have a charging station away from bedrooms. The rules was that tech went on the charger at a certain time.
The work windows did to make early windows intuitive really paid off. I was able to figure a lot out as a kid so I could play snake and minesweeper etc. Leaning into that will onboard new users, and that’s why mint is so successful
Random fact: The guy that did the hook a Macklemore’s thrift shop was partially responsible for that.
Windows is not as hard as Linux. You’re just being silly at this point. I’m not saying Windows is better, but it is engineered from the ground up to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
Case in point, installing a program on Windows? Double click the exe and you’re done. On Linux? It can be that simple but usually is much more involved.
Yes. After using Linux for servers and lower end machines I switched to mint on my main desktop a week ago. And while I’m quite pleased, it was not a seamless experience. I had to use a script that fixes my Bluetooth headset that connected but wasn’t showing up as an audio device when reconnecting, and apt sometimes having very out of date packages that just don’t work anymore. I love Linux but i really find it frustrating that many Linux users just seem a bit out of touch, don’t see that even some basics sometimes need weird fixes and that windows is just better at working out of the box. I really want Linux to get there but tbh i don’t see that happening in the near future.
Honestly after using Linux for a while I greatly prefer to just enter one command in my terminal to install something like a CPU monitoring tool or a disk space analyzer. All in all I don’t think Linux is any harder vs windows, it’s just different and most people are used to working with Windows so Linux is “hard”. Like if there’s an issue with a program you just run it from terminal and it’ll tell you exactly what’s wrong usually, whereas on Windows I have to google these obscure error logs from eventvwr.
The fact that you’re capable of using a terminal or Googling error logs puts you in the top 10% of computer users. You do not understand just how dumb the average person is.
Yes you’re right, I realize all too well as I work in tech support, I just find that on a technical level that both are just as “hard” each with their own peculiarities.
If you allow me a random question; I’m new to Lemmy and made my account in lemmy.world but I can only see the context of our discussion in lemm.ee, is this expected? What I mean is the “show context” button isn’t working for me except when I go to the source of your comment here : https://lemm.ee/comment/19375854
EDIT : I think it was a language setting thing which I’ve reverted back to “undetermined” after making that first comment. Like I can’t even find that comment back on my own profile but I can find this one perfectly fine. Sorry I’m new to this lol.
Lemmy.world has a lot of censorship from what I understand. Maybe it’s related to that?
On the other hand half the users I interact with on EE are Chinese propaganda promoters so it’s a trade off.
I’ve managed to fix it. I had to set my language to the same as when I made my initial comment to you, then I could actually find it and edited that one as language “undertermined”. Then changed my profile language back to “undetermined” and everything looks ok now. It’s now all showing up in lemmy.world for me with full context. I guess lemmy.world is more strict about this type of stuff vs lemm.ee
That’s true! I just remember helping my troubleshoot his issues recently and it was a nightmare going into the registry and editing stuff, the UX is so bad!
I love when Linux gets complex because it makes sense. When Windows gets complex with Powershell, or any other horrible stuff in this OS, I just wish it wouldn’t lol.
Again, still not the norm. But I pray for all the nontechnical gen-z players of Valorant when something bad happens on their PC lol
It depends on what you are doing
As it turns out, there are a lot of tools that work best on Linux because they were intended to be used on a Linux system. Same goes for Windows stuff that is meant to be run on Windows. You can make it work but for the most polished experience it is best to stick with something well supported.
Double click the exe, pending update blocks the installer, reboot, click the exe, go through a wizard that ask questions you don’t know the answer to (usually defaults are ok though), be prompted for admin password, get blocked by corporate policies, fill out the IT ticket, have them remote to your box and install, reboot, find the program in the menu, run it, have it blocked by HBSS, put in ticket for that, update antivirus, reboot, manually pull group policy updates, reboot, more updates install, reboot, run the program.
Obviously silly, but also real.
Also, in Windows when you finally do run the program it just hangs with “Not responding”.
Not relevant when you own the machine.
It took me more time to read your post than to install a program.
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don’t think anyone claiming that it’s not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.
Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we’ll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.
That just depends on what you want to do
If you’re a tinker on Linux then you will be on Windows
If you’re the lowest common denominator on Windows then you will be on Linux
Linux just makes it easier for the user
This is exactly how I felt when I switched to Linux and it “clicked”.
This is what personal computers were supposed to always be like before Capitalism ruined it for everyone.
Nothing wrong you say. Sure, noooothing can go wrong with this approach (I am looking at climate changes, fucking plastic in living organisms, wars not stopping even for a day, idiots in positions of power). Cool story bro, does not work
Microsoft saw a world
That’s not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.
Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that’s before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don’t want to.
Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.
Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it’s not unwarranted.
Nobody has ever been fired for ordering
SAPMicrosoft, right?It is best to try and keep Geopolitics out of software
You can’t get rid of Windows as it is deeply entrenched and heavily depended on.
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done. Microsoft has powerful software and a big ecosystem around it.
Windows is really good for administrating lots of workstations for large organizations for example.
Honestly Active Directory is so underrated. I think having the ability to run all your machines Inna shared collective with group policies and high controls really helped Windows adoption.
Even today there isn’t anything quite like Windows polices. Sure you can get the same effect on Linux but it takes a lot more work and requires more scripting and customization. I think Apple and Android have equivalent management tools but I don’t really know how they compare in practice.
Nobody disputed that their current software works.
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done.
The issue in this case is that the vast majority of companies will choose a tool made by a company that will now be bending their will to a fascist dictator whose cronies cannot be trusted to do rudimentary operational security.
There was always the nebulous strangehold that the US might have on the IT security of any company that chooses Microsoft, because you cannot build Windows and the vast majority of their software from source, or audit them.
From the IT security perspective of Europe it’s exactly like all zero-days and backdoors known and implemented by the US intelligence agencies were just handed over to North Korea.
Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.
From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn’t care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn’t care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.
This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you’re going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.
The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.
I agree with you in general, but there are people out there making specific distros with that sort of stuff in mind too. Ublue’s OSs is pretty much that: “just use it and leave the tinkering to us”. And I would argue if you’re not a developer doing advanced stuff, those work just as smoothly as windows does.
Agreed. There are many facets to this problem, so it’s difficult to get in one post, so I’ll try to reconcile the main points.
The core of what I’m trying to say, is don’t kill Linux trying to become Windows. Linux is great because it diverse, but it also has difficulties because of this. We should not change (nor destroy) the ecosystem for people who do not care to understand it.
That being said, we can also make it easier for people who do care and cooperate to make it over. But if we do this we, as Linux users, have to look at this from the right lens. The question is not “Linux users, what do you find difficult?”; this is survivorship bias. The question is “Windows users, why can’t you get Linux on your machine?”. From this framing, the real issues become a lot more apparent:
- Not savvy enough to set up USB stick
- Driver, and other hardware, issues
- Programs needed for work, or general daily usage, are unavailable
- Too much tinkering required (this is related to, but not the same as RTFM and CLI)
The first two points can be solved by purchasing a machine from a Linux OEM (i.e System76). If this is not possible, then you are going to have to do research; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
AI has a good and valid use-case here, as it can significantly ease this process (even if it’s only right 60% of the time).
Linux may not have an alternative for your preferred programs; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Developers should follow open guidelines (i.e POSIX). If they refuse to, there is nothing Linux can (nor should) do about it.
The last point can be solved by distro choice, we completely agree here. The problem is finding said distro, which is difficult. For example, I’ve never heard of Ublue until your post. I appreciate distros that handle defaults and don’t push breaking changes. The community can make this better by having a dedicated website (with a decision tree) for choosing a distro, but this has its own set of issues.
No matter, the responsibility falls on the user to pick the right distro; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Indeed, we should not. Thank you for saying this
I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
And that was before the SteamDeck too.
I switched to Linux mint because I don’t want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won’t anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I’m as happy as a clam in shit.
An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.
Linux Mint is a great distro, and I’m happy it works for you.
In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don’t care much for the terminal - but you made it through.
The people that didn’t make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.
P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn’t completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.
If laptops started coming pre-installed with Linux Mint…
I give people prepared USBs…
I just imagined a shady looking dude in a dark alley saying in a gruff voice “I got all the distros you need man, check these out” while opening his trench coat and revealing hundreds of flash drives.
I remember back when I was a kid, the only way I was even able to try Ubuntu was through “WUBI” which was pretty cool - it allowed you to “install” Ubuntu via Windows, by leveraging the VHD support in the Windows 7 bootloader. It could also be uninstalled via the Windows control panel as it was registered just like any other program.
As far as I understand, it was discontinued because of inherent technical issues with that system - but I always thought if it could be done again, then it’d help bridge the gap a bit. All you had to do was download the installer, and double click it like any other program.
I had no clue how to write an image to a flash drive, hell I doubt I even had a flash drive to use at the time. 😅
Ubuntu used to mail out free install CDs for a while. Nowadays many people don’t have optical drives anymore though.
I did get one of those at one point! Definitely no longer have it anymore, but it was really cool that Canonical provided those for quite a while (from what I know).
You can also order USB flash drives with a linux iso already on it for ten bucks or so.
Ya the thumb drive was a tripping point for me. Took me a minute to understand I had to reformat the drive itself. I also didn’t try to partition anything.
My wife is on NixOS, because she wanted a system that would be exactly the same if it died. She doesn’t know Linux from Mac or Windows; She doesn’t care about privacy or where apps come from, only that it operates the exact same everyday. (And Windows could not satisfy this requirement)
A pain point I’ve seen with NixOS for new users is the focus on editing files — how easy is it for her to install applications that way?
She doesn’t install apps, Her config is what she needs. But nixOS install is pretty simple if you can copy paste text.
You go here https://search.nixos.org/packages
Search for a package, and click if you want permanent or ephemeral app and paste the code into the shell or into your config file.
Run a rebuild
Pretty easy
Yeah, I’m used to NixOS — however, having to edit the config (instead of e.g. a package manager) is a common pain point I see when others use NixOS, and it often leads to them switching distros.
IIRC, flatpaks do work with NixOS so long as it’s enabled (and you’ve installed GNOME Software / Discover / etc - since I assume they’re not using the terminal to install programs, and that’s assuming that they don’t need more than a web browser).
So, if OP already set that up, then if Flathub has all you need, then it would make sense.
Though the Nix philosophy would disagree because that’s imperatively installing software rather than declaratively. You could probably wire up something to dump
flatpak listto a file every so often and then load that in fromconfiguration.nixor a Flake, but I’m not well versed in Nix at all haha
This means that there’s plenty of room for companies to sell curated lists of apps that just magically work. I would buy the shit out of that for a work machine that just needs to work, no matter what. I’d also pay for something like that for my mom or my fiancé neither of them are particularly tech interested but will happily use something if it works.
That is exactly what Linux distributions are, not?
Like, if you buy e.g. Tuxedo you have Linux and essential apps preinstalled, because it comes with your distro of choice out of box.
This is actually a really deep rabbit-hole. To avoid typing a novel, I’m going to cut out a lot of nuance.
Windows is installed by default on machines. Since people do not change defaults (many studies have been done on this), this is checkmate. As long as this is true, Linux will not have a major (20%+) market share.
So this has to start from the OEM. Several Linux OEMs exist (i.e Tuxedo Computers, System76, Framework) but they cannot compete with the Microsoft network. Those who are interested in Linux, but are not tech savvy, really really really should buy their device from a Linux OEM.
Driver issues are near non-existent on Linux OEM hardware. So software is the next step; and let me tell you, developing for Linux is rough. There are 2 window servers, 2 graphic stacks, 2 desktop environments, 2 coding standards, 2 C libraries,… you get the point. A lot of this can be abstracted, but it takes genuine work to do - and may be obsoleted in a month; meaning no company will do this.
All to say, creating “magically working” apps - even with a lot of monetary support - is a herculean task. Even Valve (who is FLUSHED with cash) gave up and just decided to make their own distro (SteamOS).
A lot of issues also just require personal tweaks due to open-source software being extraordinarily bad at setting sane defaults. With something like Windows, you can hire people to make this better. Who do you hire to fix the defaults for 300 independent projects? And will the devs even listen to them?
I could keep going, but you get the point, the buck is going to have to stop at the user for a lot of things.
The best solution (in my opinion) is to have specialized distros and have people choose from them. Want to game? SteamOS. Want to dev? Fedora. Want to surf the web? Linux Mint. Creating, and more importantly accurately listing, specialized distros will make lives easier. Leave the defaults to the devs, just download the “vibe” you want.
Kinda insightful, as someone who loves UX
I’ve used a Mac since forever. But I started using FOSS apps. Then I created a Hackintosh, until it borked. Then I installed ZorinOS and almost didn’t need to fix the Hackintosh. I did fix it, but Zorin convinced me that Linux is legit and I’m going all in on it.
Did you develop a desire to flood silicon valley while escaping via blimp after you started using Zorin? Asking for a friend.
Hmm…by blimp, you say? 🤔
Like that time Max Zorin of Zorin Industries went nuts, prompting the British secret service to intervene.
I think I blocked that film from my memory. 🤣 Thanks a lot, now I have to go rewatch it. 🙄
Write the kernel like a worm virus so it has self-maintenance and also self-replicates, spreading Linux to every connected machine it can. 🤡
I think that spreading Windows across Linux machines is easier. Linux’s root can be remounted as tmpfs, allowing the boot drive to be re-imaged. I don’t know if Windows can do that.
You might be able to do that with Windows Update
I bet Windows Updates are signed. Uncovering the signing key would probably have serious consequences.
Since you find some motive to rebuild the kernel in your own way or correcting bugs from 80s cli applications you’ll be quite there…
Linux isn’t hard anymore because I have ChatGPT to come up with all the command lines for me. And they work 60% of the time!
I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn’t see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG’d the issue, but I couldn’t find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I’ve spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I’m making is, Linux isn’t really that hard to learn, it’s just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧
Ummm… Both gnome and kde apps should work on any desktop environment
My guess is that they are using a KDE distro that doesn’t properly package gnome stuff
That’s just a guess though
🧐never had an linux app not working because it was “not designed for my desktop environment” I am confused, I was sure all Linux app run on all window manager / desktop environment 🤔
Are you sure?
Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there’s no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!
Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
I think that there is 1 current version of Windows, 1 “almost current”, and 1
(I have used Linux for the last 20+ years, and it’s definitely my preferred setup.)
That’s why we got together and agreed on one version of Linux to recommend to new adopters.
Linux Version
Okay, maybe we should have reconsidered when Hannah Montana Linux won the vote…
I don’t even understand the question.
