I would say we peaked copaganda when Sonic 3 had the GUN general guy be a good guy. GUN was never Sonic’s friend. They didnt even play City Escape in that movie. 5/10.
True, but GUN in general is just shown as a really incompetent group. The weird general could have been the only one preventing them from going full antagonist against sonic.
“Which propaganda?”
“Exactly what I’m talking about!”What do you define as propaganda? Anything could be if your definition is too broad.
Edward Bernays wrote the book on it, as well as Walter Lippman[1]. And subsequently so have Michael Parenti[1][2] and Noam Chomsky[1].
- Short YouTube intro: Noam Chomsky: The five filters of the mass media machine
- Somewhat longer one: You’re Not Immune To Propaganda
From the first one
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
Sounds like it’s referring to any marketing or public communications from any company government or individual. I’d qualify that as overly broad.
Hollywood’s role is propagate the owner class views upon the wagie population to create obedience with a few exceptions… And they don’t make those movies anymore.
Lastime they did it was jocker and elites go to scared that they ensured to ruin the prequel. That vibe changed real quick lol
So no Luigi movie for us is what you’re saying 😞
Hollywood’s role is to make money. They do that by making movies that appeal to people so that they’ll pay for them, while not alienating their funding. There isn’t some top down directive to portray oligarchs well, it’s just part of the ballance. Another factor is that directors, at least established ones, tend to be rich, so they have that perspective in their work.
The profit motive certainly is a major aspect, maybe even the largest, but there’s more going on than just that. For instance, the US military-intelligence-industrial complex gets directly & indirectly involved, and this is well documented.
Though money. They don’t let people film with their equipment unless they have some say in the outpout. But again, it isn’t a conspiracy, it’s factors and pressures that sometimes effect the output.
Okay sure, they conspired, but again, it’s not a conspiracy 😂
It seems like you’re jumping through hoops to maintain some kind of Panglossian, high school civics worldview.
Michael Parenti, Dirty Truths:
Those who suffer from conspiracy phobia are fond of saying: “Do you actually think there’s a group of people sitting around in a room plotting things?” For some reason that image is assumed to be so patently absurd as to invite only disclaimers. But where else would people of power get together – on park benches or carousels? Indeed, they meet in rooms: corporate boardrooms, Pentagon command rooms, at the Bohemian Grove, in the choice dining rooms at the best restaurants, resorts, hotels, and estates, in the many conference rooms at the White House, the NSA, the CIA, or wherever. And, yes, they consciously plot – though they call it “planning” and “strategizing” – and they do so in great secrecy, often resisting all efforts at public disclosure. No one confabulates and plans more than political and corporate elites and their hired specialists. To make the world safe for those who own it, politically active elements of the owning class have created a national security state that expends billions of dollars and enlists the efforts of vast numbers of people.
That’s how censorship works in practice… Profit motive and ownership structure is just the American way of doing it.
In some languages “advertising” and “propaganda” are the same word, and not for nothing. Bernays worked in both advertising and politics. It’s the same set of tools whether its to sell cigarettes or war.
Would all rhetoric (persuading people) be propaganda? I think that makes the word useless.
Rhetorical exchange between two people is one thing, mass persuasion is quite another, though they are not entirely unrelated.
So would any speech to a bunch of people be propaganda? What makes something propaganda?
it’s not useless if it describes something.
It’s describing all communication, good and bad. This conversation we’re having right now would be propaganda.
You’re trying to influence someone’s understanding of the term propganda, which makes it propganda.
I’d define propaganda as misconstruing the truth towards political ends. If it’s commercial ends rather than political, it’s false advertising. If it’s not misconstruing, then it’s advertising or public communications. Just to set a baseline.
I can’t find what your sources are defining as propaganda from a brief look, let’s compare to my definition.
it doesn’t need to be misconstrued. the best propaganda imho is totally true and in context. spreading it with some kind of political goal is still propaganda.
Cool, I wouldn’t call that propaganda, but we can work with that.
Do the Captain America movies have an irl political goal? What would it be?
I haven’t seen them, but I do know they work with the pentagon, so my guess is they aim to legitimize American hegemony and military spending
I have seen them, and the government is the bad guy, with the overreach of public surveillance being major topic. You’ll need to be more specific, but that would probably entail watching them.
I have no interest though. do you have a point?
In this case, all bullshit Yank media that makes you think America are good guys and cops help you.
I don’t think that’s a good definition, since Holocaust documentaries would be propaganda since it makes America look like the good guys.
That would definitely be propaganda since it was the Soviets who actually did all the work while the American’s ratlined them into their country and became a Nazi Empire over the next 80 years.
Let me get this right, your saying all reporting on the Holocaust is propaganda?
I’m saying everything you know about everything is propaganda. Try reading books, specifically by Bernays then come back to this conversation.
You fucking yank libs with your bullshit exasperations - Let me get this right, lol have you ever read a book? You don’t need to reply, I know the answer and I blocked you because I don’t think you have anything to contribute to my life.
I think any books I’ve read you’d call propaganda, I’m not sure what you wouldn’t call propaganda.
Well you see, American propaganda is cringe, while my superior vintage Soviet propaganda is based.
Hoped this comment was helpful :)
American’s ratlined the Nazi’s into their country,
FYI, the Soviet Union also recruited Nazis into their ranks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
If you compre both events beyong the absolute surface you might find the difference:
The soviets kept them under lock and key, extracted their knowledge and then got rid of them.
The US gave them high paying jobs, citizenship, honored their work after they passed, and amnesty for their crimes.
So only bad guys solve murder cases?
Good guys let random vicious murders on the loose.
I should trust an obvious propaganda expert , but I don’t know…
I’m glad I don’t know you in real life
I swear a couple of people are here to libsplain us in their confident ignorance.
I mean you ever see The Wire? In the first season the “heroes” beat the shit out of bystanders so much a child loses an eye. They then go on to solve murders.
I haven’t see the wire. But I don’t remember they doing that in CSI Miami, they just solved murder cases in ingenious ways.
For some people CSI is like extreme propaganda. Then they proceded to eat a literal propaganda video from a terrorist group that’s literally murdering people and justifying why they are murdering people and be cool with that. The other guy literally threatened me over that, it’s crazy.
‘00s pop culture fucking sucked
Calling it culture is an insult to the intelligence of the American people
They’re gonna do it more, now that you said that.
Well there is definitely no shortage of disrespect for the avg Americans’ intelligence.
blue bloods is the most offensive one
My ex really liked that show, mostly the main guy. Could you elaborate a bit, e.g. plot, characters etc, if it’s no trouble?
New kid on the block always flew off the handle and went with his gut feeling. He was constantly using excessive force and beating up suspects. Even when it seemed like he went to far they would ultimately find out that whoever he beat up was a “piece of shit criminal” and they deserved it. The sister who was a DA and tried to get them to follow the rules was played as a bleeding heart liberal, and would get herself or others in trouble from being too soft on crime. She was also portrayed as a “ball busting bitch” with a chip on her shoulder. Grandpa was a racist fuck that everyone justified as that’s just grandpa, he’s from a different time.
Was your impression that the DA sister was a liberal? She was always doing her part to put people in jail, just didn’t tolerate the police cutting corners. She always put her family first as well, corrupt as hell.
She was what conservatives think bleeding hearts are. Also liberals put people in jail all of the time, look at Kamala’s history.
I wouldn’t call Kamala a liberal either. The actual liberal in the show seemed to the DA’s daughter.
it’s a show that hits all the usual conservative copaganda talking points. cops are good. bad guys are bad. innocent people will be fine as long as they comply. then consider how often a “good” character is white and a “bad” character is black, and a disconcerting pattern starts to arise. the show is outright cop apologia
Honestly I’m more offended people made a big deal about COPS! getting cancelled only to be replaced with Live PD, which doesn’t have a team filming them but rather just works off all the body camera footage. Worse than COPS ever was.
“Live” pd had a camera crew, they also use dash cam and body cam footage. That’s kind of the point of the “live” pd name, a crew following and filming them for the majority of it. They did use a delay and would clearly end or cutaway from stuff but its successor on patrol “live” has definitely shown police doing dumb shit and has caused some departments to pull out of being on the show.
There’s other shows and I forgot the name that would just do re-enactments of calls and responses and some that only use body cam / dash cam footage.
Thanks for the clearer details. I would never actually willingly watch such drivel, so I do appreciate being corrected on that.
I definitely understand anyone who won’t watch it and I won’t cry when it goes off the air. It’s a guilty pleasure of mine because one of the areas that’s commonly on it is near where I used to work as a firefighter. So it’s kinda neat seeing some of the ppl I used to interact with in a negative or positive light 🤷
That’s fair, I actually heard that they recently started doing my first college’s town regularly, and it made me wonder about some folks I used to know there.
It’s a shame the show is such a good concept. I loved watching what was essentially an every day look into this police dynasty but boy did it get unbearably boot licky over time. The old man telling his stories of how he used to not give a fuck as an old cop from the 60s was always funny (and explains how the family has always been this “privileged” strata).
there’s a world where better writers make something better with it. as it stands it’s either overtly racist, or as tone deaf as saying “i don’t see color”
I vaguely remember being somewhat shocked at what Chicago PD has the “good guys” do and justifying it.
Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself. Even those who would critique capital end up reinforcing it instead.
Disco Elysium
Why is this the case? Why is it so readily able to subsume critique?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)
Some former means of countercultural expression that have been identified by critics as recuperated (at least in part) are: punk music and fashion like mohawk hairdos, ripped jeans, and bondage accessories like dog collars; tattoos; street art and participatory art.
(You know, like Paul Ryan liking Rage Against the Machine.)
Because Capitalism is built to sell anything, even ideas.
Do you remember Reddit’s Random Acts of Pizza from around 2010-2012 or so?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/random-acts-pizza-donate/story?id=13950694 (This story is from June 2011)
It was a really sweet forum where people were buying hungry folks in need a pizza. Something simple and comforting for people struggling.
Within a year of a handful of news articles about the subreddit, and Mars Candy had copyrighted the phrase “Random Acts of Chocolate” and pushed an ad campaign about “buying an extra for a friend” as a “random act of chocolate.”
https://www.cspdailynews.com/snacks-candy/mars-distributing-random-acts-chocolate (This is from September 2011)
https://www.thismomneedswine.com/2011/03/free-chocolate-bar.html (A blog post from March 2011 about free coupons for chocolate)
Part of how they recuperate things is through mechanisms like copyright and trademarks, these laws are built protect businesses but bind individuals. Random Acts of Pizza is just a subreddit but Random Acts of Chocolate is copyrighted, trademarked, and owned by Mars, Inc. Meaning in some ways I am barred from using the phrase “Random Acts of Chocolate” since they own it.
still gotta use capitalism to critique capitalism
I think there’s an argument to be made that this is the best way to get the message out. A book with a publisher and a famous author gets a lot more attention than a PDF on the internet by someone less notable. And the notoriety of authors – for worse – is tied to your book deal, the media hits your publisher helps attract, and being an in-demand speaker. The theses of any prominent book is readily available in interviews, articles, etc. anyway.
It’d be better if she donated much of her earnings to a worthwhile cause, but for all I know she does.
Bro thinks Startship Troopers is actual army propaganda.
The book was so on point people still argue if it was pro or anti fascism.
When I first watched that movie, there was a group of guys that would have joined the troopers, judging from at what scenes they cheered.
You can start my ship any time
You don’t copy Leni Riefenstahl without making at least partly a fascist propaganda movie.
Only some of us have the strength and the courage to be free!
You don’t get it… its super
It’s just innocuous entertainment.
Listening to the Super Earth Anthem doesn’t make me want to drop a 380mm barrage over everything the Illuminate hold dear, or anything…
Didn’t captain America literally become a fugitive of the state
He threw a tantrum because he didn’t want public oversight over his and his friend’s superpowers.
It was basically a “You’re a loose canon, McBain” cop storyline.
You mean the solider who saw what happens when a list of everyone who is considered “other” is ordered and maintained by a government? All because, Tony “I am a gift to God” Stark and Bruce “Couldn’t Say No” Banner created a nigh unstoppable police force with no oversight?
IMO, you’re not wrong, but Magneto is the better portrayal.
Magneto was right all along about the persecution of mutants. Tony Stark and Captain America disagreed on a “who watches the Watchmen” level in the movies.
Stark thought that heroes had too much power to act without the approval of some higher authority, and the Captain believed that they should be able to act when and where they could without needing permission in order to do the most good. Magneto looked at the number he had tattooed on his wrist as a child in the camps and said, “Never again.”
Magneto looked at the number he had tattooed on his wrist as a child in the camps and said, “Never again.”
Magneto is one of the posterboys of the swerve.
Tony also had the issue that he felt guilty over his failed plan to protect the world that was pretty authoritarian.
I don’t think cap would have been against all oversight, but the one presented was very narrow minded and slow to act until more drastic decisions had to be made, like nuking New York.
But super hero movies have no subtlety!!!
TIL cops are the same thing as jews in the holocaust because their departments have a payroll
.world
I don’t understand your comment.
Captain America was alive for WWII
Germany created a registry for certain people and it didn’t end well for said people
Wow… is that your full understanding of Nazi Germany?
The so-called US also created “a registry” for certain people, which inspired Germany for their Nurenberg race-laws.
Captain America was fighting for the US while Jim Crow was active. He probably went to school with people who found Hitler’s ideas great.
It’s far from my only understanding of it, it’s just the first thing that comes to mind for what might make him averse to a list of “others” being created
He probably would have also seen what happened with the US’s registry of Japanese people, which didn’t go great for them either
Captain America is a weird one to include. Not denying it’s probaganda, everything is, but throwing Cap in with copaganda is such a serface level take. He’s probaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Imo Iron Man is the much more harmful propaganda. You can pretty much draw a direct line between the characters rise in popularity thanks to the MCU and the rise of Elon Musk.
Kind of what the whole thing in civil war was. Tony was looking to absolve his guilt over the people they failed to save while looking for more and more authoritarian methods of keeping the world “safe”.
Cap was much more for freedom and while the idea that the avengers should have absolutely no oversight is absurd, the question of who should be the oversight was important and much of what the avengers did could not wait on a committee to decide to act (also, the last time a committee did act they decided to nuke New York)
He’s propaganda for American exceptionalism sure, but also embodies it in an old school New Deal way. The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
Pretending that America isn’t only already fascist, but inspired the fascists they are supposedly against is American exceptionalism, and you’re eating it right up.
The character has been consistently anti-facist over the years.
What was he doing during the Cold War?
People kept calling Musk – Stark because they thought he was a scientist/genius. Like the MCU fake tech was gonna be birthed out of this immature edge lord that steals people’s idea with stolen money.
Yeah I kinda disagree with Cap as well. He also explicitly refutes the government to stand up what he believes is right in Civil War too.
Yep. If cops had the ethics / morals of cap we’d have zero issues with the police.
Any superhero movie is problematic. They all say that only a few special people can save the country and the world. The rest of the population just has to hold tight and let the important people do their thing. It’s just a small step by replacing powers with wealth to give the rich carte blanche to do as they please.
Not those scenes in Spider-Man where New York throws random objects at the villain until they relent. Hell yeah solidarity.
Ghostbusters II the Ghostbusters would have failed if it wasn’t for New Yorkers spreading positive vibes.
Not to mention that a lot of those special people are born better
I wonder if that’s a limit of storytelling. Grand social change is hard to film. Even team effort cohesion requires a lot of actors and writing to pull off.
No matter how sound the morals and story, if it’s not entertaining, it might fail as mass media.
A little bit of that, a little bit of plain ol power fantasy.
It’s deeper than that. It’s about defense of the Status Quo. No superhero looks around at the parts of society that we just accept without thinking about and says this needs to change.
And much of the crime fighting is blue collar crime. On general the superheroes don’t touch white collar criminals.
Thanks for putting this into words. I’ve had a vague discontent and disgruntlement with superhero crap for a long time. While this isn’t the only reason I dislike superhero movies, this is a big part of it.
I do still like The Punisher movie with Jain, Dredd, The Crow, and a few others. Antiheros in general. They’re also more human and not as one dimensional.
Oh I agree completely. There is a fascist aspect inherent to Superheroes. Cap is just one lf the less egregious ones.
I mean, I’ve definitely seen Cap used to represent the Ugly American in comics, especially during that period post-9/11.
He’s definitely not fully anti-fascist coded, because he represents the US, and the US while ostensibly being democratic, is in many ways deeply fascist and always has been. Hitler was inspired by our Jim Crow laws.
There’s some smart people who understand that America never actually stood for any of that stuff and they write Cap to be the same.
Is that Ultimate Cap or 616 Cap? Ultimate Cap was an asshole – even that universe’s Aunt May called him out on his BS after Peter died.
I’m not a big Marvel fan, I just know I’ve seen lots of examples. Makes sense that they would be alternate universe Caps, tho. That’s a great way to be able to write the character and show the dark side of US politics without necessarily marring the original character himself. However, to outsiders, there’s not really a difference between the two, because they’re not deep in nerd lore.
He’s still p/aying world police.
I think part of it’s that not all propaganda is bad.
There’s probably a term for it, but I’d draw a distinction between “opinion” propaganda and “aspirational” propaganda.
One tries to change your opinion of something, like “cops are good noble and always do the right thing”.
The other encourages the viewer to live up to some ideal. It’s entirely possible for that ideal to also not be great, but even then “I should be” is better than “they are”.A lot of PSAs and things from the ad council fall in the later category. Like the billboards that basically say “real men are present and emotionally available fathers to their children” or "good parents teach their kids healthy diet and exercise by example”.
They’re openly cases of the government trying to change public opinions or attitudes (which arguably makes them better examples of propaganda than a lot of commercial television), but they don’t feel as objectionable.“This honest and kind man who always tries to do good and help those around him to the point that it overshadows him being a physically perfect human is the embodiment of the emblematic American man” is more in that aspirational category.
“Propaganda” comes from “propagate”, so the word inherently isn’t bad. The suffix “anda” basically means “thing of”, so in a literal sense, “propaganda” is any “object of propagation”, although this reading of etymology isn’t widely circulated.
Propaganda is thus inherently a very all-encompassing term. Any poster, flyer or brochure is propaganda, whether it advertizes a product, service, lost cat, or wants you to join the army. Anything “mass media” is propaganda. Anything spreading “a message” that is meant for wider propagation, regardless of the message content is propaganda.
At least that’s according to my rudimentary knowledge of high school latin. There’s the more “mainstream”, “official” etymology on Wiktionary: the word was first used in the name of an old Catholic Church department from Latin times for “spreading the faith”, so that’s where the more loaded use and connotation comes from. However, I doubt that this department name is the first ever use of the ablative feminine gerund form of the verb propagate. That’s like saying the first use of the term “World health” is in the name Wirld Health Orgsnization. If anything, someone had to discuss the name beforehand.
So, there’s this Overton window-esque aspect to the word.
Wikipedia has a good overview of propaganda, although it is itself loaded onto the “must be loaded (i.e. what you called ‘bad’ propaganda)” definition of propaganda. And they like usibn the word “loaded” a lot.
Elon was literally in 2 at the Grand Prix
Fuck America and its Captain. All MCU shit is propaganda to brainwash yanks to believe in their inherent goodness and exceptionalism.
Bro went thermonuclear with this take
Found Red Skulls account
Works so well 💀
25 years ago I noticed the trend in the movies in the theater, and realized the USA was becoming fascist. I was sad, but surprised later at how long it took. I rather thought it would be faster and more dramatic, and not this creeping sorry mediocrity seen later in politics
Is it any wonder I tend to gravitate to video games where the main character is stranded alone somewhere. Subnautica, Satisfactory, Factorio, Antichamber…
