nah fuck that noise. thats what i use.
its good to know it more deeply, but i want the practicality of a stable system that gets out of the way of my shitposting.
if anything, easy stable distros are more worthy because it allows just anyone to ditch windows. instead of being a nerd’s plaything, that is.
ITT: Nerds that want mass Linux adoption but don’t want to deal with people who don’t share their interests and opinions
Been using Linux for almost two decades now. Mostly Ubuntu and now recently Linux Mint.
normie users should be able to everything without using a terminal
True Linux users build their own kernel and distro from scratch from an environment running directly in EFI
@wander1236 @Lexam with tcc, this should be possible…
https://github.com/andreiw/tinyccPff, I carve my own CPUs from compacted sand, like real men.
I don’t compile, I flip the CPU instruction switches manually while reading directly from the source code.
If you see having to use the terminal as a failure of the operating system then you shouldn’t use Linux
You don’t have to live in the terminal, but the amount of people who treat the terminal like it’s lava is too damn high.
I am very proficient with the terminal. But there are many use cases when I want a OS that does not need the terminal at all. For instances media dedicated pcs.
I have a pc that I only use from the couch, for playing games a viewing media, and using the terminal from my remote size keyboard is a bore, I would prefer a 100% gui solution for that usage.
For gaming and media consumption, you can run Steam Big Picture Mode or Plex/Jellyfin which are designed for controller use.
But you’re not doing system administration with a TV remote on any operating system. By having a system that you can fully control from the terminal, you can just ssh into it to fix any issues without wasting system resources on a GUI that you will rarely use.
I’ve gone back and forth on this topic over the years, but I’ve finally just come to the conclusion that the year of the Linux Desktop just…shouldn’t come, and I hate when I see this argument that people shouldn’t have to learn to use the terminal.
The terminal is about as difficult to learn as a Word Processor or a Spreadsheet Application.
Sure, it can get complicated sometimes, but most of the time you just become familiar with your daily habits in it and when something weird comes up that’s what a search engine is for.
A lot of the time when I hear “Computer users shouldn’t have to learn how to use the terminal,” what I hear is “Computer users shouldn’t have to learn how to use the Computer.”
f you want to play basketball but don’t want to pick up a ball or learn how to dribble, then you don’t want to play basketball. Maybe you just like to watch basketball?
But using a computer is not a spectator sport, you’re typing and clicking and touching, etc. You’re interacting with the computer, and thusly you have to speak it’s language, at least a little, to get stuff done.
Additionally, most Linux Distros these days have made things incredibly user friendly, just not as braindead easy as Windows or MacOS.
Beginner friendly distros (Ubuntu, Mint) generally require you to open up a terminal to update your system and install/uninstall new software, and that’s usually all you have to do. That is a couple commands to remember and one password.
If most people can’t manage that then, yeah, I’m sorry, Linux will never be for you, and distros shouldn’t inherently have to create an autoupdate fix all errors back end for you just for the sake of getting every idiot under the sun using Linux.
You don’t want to learn how to use the terminal? Then you don’t want to use Linux. You just hate Windows, and hating Windows does not mean you love Linux.
Saucy rant over.
But why not make Linux idiot proof? What would you lose from the existence of a distro that has an easy gui tool for everything an average computer user would ever do?
The terminal wouldn’t go away or lose it’s functionality, if that’s how you prefer doing things but it would open up the benefits of Linux to a way bigger audience.
Because knowing how to use a terminal is not the same as knowing how to use a computer. Windows doesn’t need you to use the cmd for anything most people would ever do. Neither does macOS, Android, iOS, even ChromeOS. Only Linux can’t get rid of that stigma and I just don’t get why.
Why is it better to force users to run updates via the terminal than having a menu for that in the settings or the „AppStore“ (graphical package manager) or a „Update“ app?
Why don’t you want Linux to become easy enough to use that my grandma could handle it?
Because the use of the terminal is as intuitive as using a Word Processor. Learning to use the terminal is as important as learning how to type. Without this knowledge, I’d argue you’re not using your computer, you’re spectating. Which is fine if you’re paying for support, but with Linux you are doing no such thing unless you use Redhat.
As soon as computers hit the general public, there should have been a mass effort to teach people that the terminal is the main interface through which everything happens on a computer, just like there were a ton of men suddenly learning to type in the early 70s when computing suddenly became important to everyday work. Prior to that typing was considered the sole domain of female secretaries. But this never happened for use of the terminal for better or worse.
Ultimately I get that people don’t have time to learn everything, but, again, the terminal is as ubiquitous as the Word Processor and ten thousand times more powerful. The fact it is not a staple in the arsenal of anyone who has ever sat in front of a Computer screen is a sad state of affairs.
The argument I’m making is that we have multiple generations of people where the majority of them simply don’t speak the language of computers while the majority of them have to use them everyday. It’s no wonder they all get so frustrated. If only someone had taught them how to use it in the first place rather than gave them a bandaid solution that hides the majority of what’s happening behind the scenes.
While frustrating to learn at first, that is all learning, it is always hard to learn something new. Picking up a Word Processor is hard, learning to use Graphics Manipulation Program is hard, etc. But people rarely argue you shouldn’t learn to use those tools, even though the terminal is just as essential to modern computer use as those tools. Again, we have multiple generations who generally lack the knowledge on how to use something as essential as the Word Processor, and that is a damn shame.
The CLI is very much an enthusiast/professional tool. It isn‘t and it shouldn’t be the default in this day and age. Saying everyone should know how to use the CLI is like saying everyone should know how to use a DSLR camera instead of just relying on their phone’s or everyone should know how to drive a manual transmission car. Those are all great skills to have but most people just want a snapshot or a car that gets them from A to B safely. They don’t want to think about it. And most people just want a computer that gets out of their way. And why shouldn’t they have it?
And I’m not saying the terminal shouldn’t exist and that people shouldn’t be encouraged to learn about how it functions. But there should always be the option to completely avoid it. Because of you want mainstream adoption, you need to face the sad reality, that the Mainstream doesn’t want to look under the hood. And if you don’t want mainstream adoption, why?
I do want mainstream adoption … of the terminal. The terminal is not just a professional tool. In fact, whenever anything goes wrong with your computer silently, I can almost guarantee there’s some helpful output that you’d see had you been invoking that program from the terminal. So what ends up happening? You go to a “professional” who looks at that output, search engines the output, and uses the online documentation to attempt a fix.
The analogy to the car is somewhat apt. I’d argue we’d all be better off of we knew how to at least do some basic mechanic work. This is the same thing. I’m not saying we all need to live in the terminal…I’m saying we all should know very basics around it. Update our system, read and search error problems should they arise, and knwo when and where to reach out to others for help when we can’t solve it. I don’t think its unreasonable to suggest everybody learn a tool, especially when, again, that tool becomes ubiquitous amongst anyone who does any troubleshooting with computers on a regular basis.
I don’t care about mainstream Linux adoption. I care about mainstream curiosity into how things we use everyday work and attaining a basic knowledge of it.
Many attempts have been made at graphical package updaters, and honestly they always end up just outputting an error message when something goes wrong. The reason it frustrates new users so much is that they aren’t used to having to troubleshoot their own systems. If they don’t wish to do so, that’s fine, but then they should pay for support since that requires other people’s time, efforts, and skills to do so.
Arguing that everything should just work on Linux without having to troubleshoot things on your own (which, again, 99% of the time, involves the terminal regardless of what OS you’re using), is simply a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to run Linux, and you refuse to pay for it, then complain that it should be more “user friendly”, which is just another way of saying “I want tech support but don’t want to pay for it”, then it shows you probably shouldn’t be using that OS, and may by you don’t understand even the basics of how a computer works?
If you’re just not willing to do even the bare minimum to open up a terminal, attempt to run the program, read the error output, and then research said output, then you should be on a platform that will provide the support you need. In other words, you should be on Windows or MacOS.
If you all want the year of the Linux Desktop, and you all seem to be proclaiming it can’t happen until it can operate without the use of the terminal, then you should pay a group of developers to develop it and provide support for it. Until then, you are the maintainer of your own computer, and you should probably just do the work and open the terminal up and do the bare minimum.
The terminal will never reach mainstream adoption because it already had in the 80s and 90s and people progressed away from CLI and towards GUI. It’s archaic. It’s a fallback. It’s useful, sure. I use it regularly. But not because I‘d not just prefer having a graphical front end. It’s only more useful because the respective front end is lacking.
Also, the „shut up and go use Windows/macOS“ attitude seems very elitist to me. You‘d rather have the non techies suffer high prices, privacy violations, etc., have them suffer microsoft/Apple instead of making the system more inviting for them? And you‘d rather have another company (like valve is doing right now btw) swoop in and offer what you refuse to entertain because you want everyone to do things the way you like to do things.
normie users should not have to use the terminal
my friend, I want to impart something on you. I write this with the sincere hope it changes your mind.
The average user of a computer does not want to even think about the operating system it uses.
Most people, myself included, want to work on our computer, not work on our computer (which is why I use Mint). An operating system should be the software version of a motherboard – an invisible plinth upon which all the other things you actually care about, sit. In a hardware context the things you care about are all the components plugged into the motherboard – your GPU, CPU, RAM, storage devices, and so on. In a software context, this is email, web browsing, video games, and office software, the programs the average user actually gives a shit about. Notice: Nowhere in that list does it say getting up into the systems guts via terminal or command prompt or whatever flavor of blinking cursor you prefer. Most users just want their programs to run and to never think about the underlying system, and that is okay. Not everyone needs to be technical, and shouldn’t have to be to use a computer and reap the full benefits of using one. I choose to be because I’m a fucking spaz, but that doesn’t mean someone who doesn’t want to be should instead be condemned to inferior offerings from the likes of Microsoft and Apple. If Linux were, indeed, the best – as Microsoft seems determined to prove via Windows enshittification – then it should be, ideally, just as easy for nontechnical people to pick up as Windows. If it isn’t, that’s a problem with Linux that is yet to be solved, not a problem with people.
Fortunately, my experience using Mint for the past year has been largely exactly that. It’s very close to that ideal, if not already there – I’ve had a few very minor issues, but, nothing I was unable to fix via a quick internet search.
I say all this in the hope you’ll understand, if you want Linux to take off, it needs to be accessible to the average idiot. It must be, because I don’t know if you’ve seen the news, but we are not cumulatively getting smarter.
The average user of a computer does not want to even think about the operating system it uses.
That is certainly true.
Not everyone needs to be technical, and shouldn’t have to be to use a computer and reap the full benefits of using one. I choose to be because I’m a fucking spaz, but that doesn’t mean someone who doesn’t want to be should instead be condemned to inferior offerings from the likes of Microsoft and Apple. If Linux were, indeed, the best – as Microsoft seems determined to prove via Windows enshittification – then it should be, ideally, just as easy for nontechnical people to pick up as Windows. If it isn’t, that’s a problem with Linux that is yet to be solved, not a problem with people. […] I say all this in the hope you’ll understand, if you want Linux to take off, it needs to be accessible to the average idiot.
You seem to be misinterpreting what I am saying.
I am not here as a Linux evangelical, trying to spread the
Source CodeWord of Linus. It’s admirable that you want that, you should contribute to the many open source projects that are bringing that closer to reality.I’m here as a user of Linux trying to read Linux memes in c/linuxmemes and so I focus my attention on the present state of being a user in Linux, not some hypothetical reality that, though desirable, doesn’t yet exist.
In the current state of things, Linux is not for everyone. It is a good operating system, but not everyone has the time to use it. I will certainly tell people of the advantages that it has over Windows and, for those capable, I will recommend it.
For the people that choose to use Linux today, the 1st of April in the Year of our Lord 2025: you will have to use the Terminal. It isn’t optional. Nor, despite the griping of newbies, is it a difficult thing to learn and you should become comfortable with it if you want to be a successful user of Linux. Artificially limiting yourself to GUI applications is going to make the operating system seem less capable than it actually is and you will be frustrated by a much larger set of problems.
Until that glorious day in The Future when the universal GUI DE comes out, learn to use the terminal.
some linux users dream of having their grandma run linux so they never have to look at windows or macos ever again
That just isn’t how novice users interact with a computer, though. Most mainstream OSes have GUI for anything you’d need to do as a novice.
Touching virtual buttons on a multitouch screen wasn’t how novice users interacted with a computer until it was.
To me this feels like recommending Android to someone and then people on social media saying that I’m elitist for expecting someone to use a computer with only a touchscreen when everyone knows that you interact with computers with a mouse and keyboard.
I’m not speaking hypothetically, this was the exact argument people were using when smartphones were still nerd toys and not a standard part of human experience. “Nobody will ever use them”, “they’re too confusing”, “typing on a screen is too clunky at least my flip phone has buttons”.
People can learn. As soon as the iPhone came out suddenly everyone was capable of using a touchscreen interface and learning a new OS.
Linux isn’t for everyone. But if you’re going to choose make the leap to Linux, you will be using the terminal occasionally. You don’t have to be a terminal-only user, most people use a GUI for daily tasks.
As long as you’re okay learning how to do some basic terminal tasks you’ll be fine. But if you come into with the mindset that the terminal shouldn’t be needed and get upset at people for telling you otherwise, you’re going to have a bad time.
Absolutely! Honestly I feel like human apathy towards leaning new things has increased exponentially over the years. People are thinking less and less, especially with Ai enabling people to put their brain in a jar and forgo critical thinking themselves.
Thing is, terminal came first, then came a gui tool make things easier, more intuitive and then came touch to make things even easier.
Saying users should just get used to using the terminal feels to me more like someone designing a smartphone in 2025, that requires you to use a trackball and physical keyboard and then complaining about people wanting touchscreens, when they clearly could just get used to the trackball.
Of course they could, but why should they want to?
Using the terminal is not the next evolution, it’s technically two steps back. That doesn’t mean it’s bad or doesn’t have it’s place. It can be incredibly efficient for power users. But most users aren’t power users. They want the operating system to get out of their way so they can focus on what they actually want to do. And that’s not learning how to update their system via the CLI.
We’re not talking about most users, Linux isn’t for everyone.
Every time this argument comes up people always point at someone like their grandmother and her inability to learn the terminal as if that is the target audience for Linux. It isn’t, Linux isn’t for everyone. It’s an operating system built by and for enthusiasts.
There has been a lot of improvements to Linux so that ‘enthusiasts’ need to do less work but even the most user friendly distro requires you to use the terminal for some tasks.
But why shouldn’t it be for everyone? Why do grandmothers have to use Windows or macOS?
I mean, yes, for now, Linux isn’t a everyman‘s OS. But why shouldn’t the community strive to make it so? Isn’t the idea behind FOSS „by the people for the people“ not „by enthusiasts for enthusiasts“?
And I’m not saying that every distro should be idiot proof. The Arches and Gentoos do have their rightful place. I just think, the mindset should be more „how can we make Linux as a whole more accessible and inviting for everyone, so FOSS can become the dominant type of software one day“ and less (and I’m exaggerating here) „how dare regular people want to benefit from the same freedom as me, this should be for enthusiasts only“.
Because at the moment, only valve is really doing something to make Linux more mainstream and do you really want that movement in the hand of a company instead of the people?
I’d take it a step further that by “by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts”, they’re really meaning “it’s for the elites”. They like that it’s hard, they had to work to learn it and they’ll be damned if anyone should get it easier, and also it’s a way to flex on people.
I may be overstating this person’s take on it and reading more into it than is there, but that’s my general view of this enthusiast (elitist) mindset, and really, it isn’t doing anyone any favors.
Regular joes can’t really hurt the direction of this ecosystem; corpos are limited in the influence they have over it, and anyone can exclude their contributions (even systemd can be left out still). But more people using it means more resources available to improve things and more interest in that happening. It also means more direct support for mainstream programs rather than just a hodge podge of companies throwing out minimally usable versions as a proof of concept and not bothering to go further with the work of Wine, Valve through Proton and Steam Deck, and CodeWeavers, to pick up the slack and try to get things to mostly work right.
Anyway, tl;dr, I agree with you… The Gentoos and Arches aren’t going away just because there’s more mainstream interest, if anything they’ll get more enthusiasts to join because they got the itch from the easier distros, much like a gateway drug.
The difference is that the touch screen stuff was a more dumbed down experience, not an increase in difficulty and options.
Most mainstream OSes have GUI for anything you’d need to do as a novice.
And how is Linux any different?
I’ve literally had a non-technical person who used Linux for less than a week fix an issue through the xfce gui while I was googling a solution.
You just need to choose a correct distro and DE for the job.
Everything but ffmpeg. ffmpeg was what made me accept (with silent contempt) the Terninal on Windows, fish made me love it on linux
This is the kind of mindset that prevents mass adoption of Linux. Sure the terminal should be available but there still should be distros catering to less tech-savvy people if we want the year of the Linux desktop to arrive at all. Some governments are looking to replace Windows with Linux, and you cannot expect the average desk worker to know or even care about doing stuff in a terminal.
Year of the Linux desktop but it’s chrome os? :-)
You don’t need to do everything on the terminal – even today, you don’t have to. But you should not fear the terminal, the same way you should not fear a piano because you play a violin. Windows also has a terminal, there’s stuff that tells you to go there to enable some Powershel things, and no one complains.
You really don’t understand who you’re talking to here. The average person hasn’t heard about browser extensions. I’m serious. The amount of even engineers that work with me who are incredibly good at one specific thing, like autocad design, but don’t really know or care about general computer things is pretty high, let alone non technical personnel. I’ve had people ask me to explain extensions and how to use ad blocking software. People just want a computer that works and does the thing they want it to without fancy things.
People don’t fear the terminal, they just don’t understand it and they don’t care to memorize things to learn it. If Linux wants to be an end user desktop, you need to do everything by the GUI. What is intuitive, interesting and easy to you is a nightmare for other people. I’m assuming vice versa if the accountant gives you a 10 dimension excel spreadsheet or something. It might just be me projecting my fear of accounting excel spreadsheets.
Great comparison, because playing either piano or violin is beyond 99% of all people who just want to listen to music. Common users and office workers have never even heard of Powershell.
You should not have to learn for years before being comfortable using a computer. If everyone has to do that it’s not something that will be adopted widely, as we can obviously see with Linux on Desktop. It’s both a Software problem (either lack thereof or bad design) as well as a culture problem; the latter is what I criticize, because it’s so utterly unnecessary and alienates common people.
And the Windows Shell really isn’t comparable, it’s 100% optional.
Now you’re just lying
You don’t need years for a terminal, at least not for the stuff a normal user would have to expect to do with it (so eg.: not browsing files, that has good UIs already). But you should expect to have to learn something. We require people to learn and even certify their learning when they are to drive a car for example, and for computers we are not even askng 1/6th of that, even tho the last few decades show we maybe should.
Why? A computer is not a car. You should have to learn to use certain programs, sure. Can’t expect people to master spreadsheet or video editing programs by default. And maybe you should learn about the dangers of the Internet. But, at least in my opinion, the operating system should require as little attention as possible. It should be as intuitive as possible for anyone touching it for the first time. CLI is useful, sure. But it’s definitely not intuitive and thus inaccessible for many users.
The moment you need a secondary resource to be able to use your system, that system has failed for the vast majority of users. And it’s near impossible to learn how to use the terminal without a secondary resource. A good GUI you can figure out pretty quickly.
Learn for years? Dude you just search on the internet if you need to find out how to do something in the terminal that you don’t know how to do. This isn’t the 90s where you had to have a bookshelf of technical manuals to install and run your favorite distro.
Lol okay, just enter a command from the internet you don’t understand. What can possibly go wrong? The learning isn’t about being able to enter something, but to know what not to copy and paste. Just executing commands from the internet is the fastest way to fuck up your computer, to use the CLI regularly you have to understand what happens. And to do so is something that grows over years; years of broken systems, at least if you wildly enter stuff from the internet.
This is not good enough if we ever want Linux to be mass adopted. And expecting it is even worse if this is to ever change; In my many years being into Linux I read outright warnings for e.g. Linux Mint users to not ever look for help outside of Mint forums because of this culture. Which is ridiculous, it shouldn’t be this way.
Then you have the security issue of comes from teaching users they should just trust whatever random people tell them to do when facing an issue with their computer.
That would be an issue with a GUI too though.
You can’t do as much damage with a GUI that tells you what you’re doing in regular language vs commands.
sudo rm -rf /* means nothing to a newbie
“Reset to factory settings” is pretty freaking clear
Terminal usage is a tool just like GUI tools, I don’t think it’s helpful either to preload people with the belief that it’s some arcane tool that takes years before you can start using it, like anything you pick it up by doing.
Can’t really say it’s 100% optional as a blanket case either, heavily depends on a user, my work I’ve depended on having a terminal for years, and that was even before I moved into SWE, I’ve seen lots of business developed processes put together as an amalgam of batch files, VBA/VBS, and python because they needed to put something together with what they had rights to.
Be honest that I don’t see the terminal as a barrier to Linux anyhow, for the use case of “I browse the internet and use office programs”, you absolutely do not need to drop to the CLI, at least not for Debian or Mint, can handle installs and updates through their graphical package managers. Most people probably aren’t setting up services or the like on their machines, and if they are they already require terminal usage on any operating system.
Nah, that’s wrong.
While I agree with you that reluctance to use the terminal for literally anything is way too high, regular users shouldn’t have to. And some distros make that easy for them to never have to stick a toe into the terminal, and this is not a bad thing.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that there are some tasks that can be done in a GUI.
I don’t believe that any Linux DE is at the point where a regular user never needs to use the terminal. Knowing how to use the terminal is, currently, a required skill for using Linux.
Now, don’t take this to mean that I think someone’s grandmother needs to be a terminal user. By “regular user” I mean “average person who has chosen to use Linux” and not “random person off the streets”, that person should probably use Windows still because Linux isn’t ready for everyone.
I run 2 systems. One is HTPC with LM, the other is dual boot Windows / bazzite. I like LM and bazzite. I like it very much. But maaaaan, I had problems setting up.
LM was totally fine except for when I was trying to set up pihole, screwed some steps and tried to remove it by terminal. It somehow corrupted OS so every time I’d try to login it would crash and prompt to login again. So far it is running fine but I had issues with pihole again when I tried to update it to v6. This time it corrupted pihole itself but I have managed to restore and update it. I guess reason is that pihole doesn’t support LM put of the box and requires some tinkering to install.
Bazzite, on the other hand, is totally fine now. I guess that was something related to a recent update. But before that it wouldn’t load. Like screen would be black but terminal would be still accessible. I have figured out that it would crash loading gaming mode and stuck there (but I didn’t tell it to boot to gaming mode) so I had to manually make it boot to desktop mode (kde) in terminal every time. If you think that I have screwed something up again - nope. Fresh install on a separate ssd. It installs and then would reuse to boot or boot after like half an hour into kde. All the rpm ostree -update or -upgrade did nothing.
I love these both systems but maaaaan if a basic user has to experience what I had, they’d stick to mac/windows for the rest of their life.
I just installed garuda and update via their built in update command
Thats the neat part, we dont need to and theres literally no benefit in doing so. Heres the cycle
Linux user suggests Linux to eveyone (like a dumbass) -> people install Linux -> its not a Windows clone -> people get pissed and complain (without doing anything constructive) -> people reinstall Windows
The fact is the more nontechnical people use Linux the more complaints maintainers get, the less detailed bug reports become, and the increase to funding/contributions will be mininal if even noticeable.
I’m on Mint, but I still use the terminal to update my flatpaks. I’m just freaky that way 😎
Someday you’ll try that over SSH once.
Once.
I have no idea why it is the way it is.
A meme is a great way to avoid their fury; Lynx doesn’t show images.
I’ll be honest, as a macos & Linux user, even macos, the (self proclaimed) Holy Grail of accessibility and user friendliness,required me to run a few commands to fix bugs (not in weird softwares, just stuff which stopped working through reboots in the OS itself).
You can’t expect to use a computer without CLI, or what you get is windows (and even then, you might get around the CLI but you gonna need to do some cursed regedit at the first attempt of slight customization, or bug).
The only exception to this is phones, and for good reason; you hardly can do shit in phones anyway, and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you
and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you.
“Oop, sorry, we only promised 2 major updates! Your 2 year old device is abandoned now.”
–The mobile industry
We need a decently-hardwared Linux phone so badly…
Or maybe decent mobile producers. New Pixels get 7 years of updates, Fairphone 5 gets 10.
Almost all maintenance tasks and fixes on windows come back to the command line. So I have no idea why people keep bringing it up about Linux.
Because Windows hides its (ugly ass) terminal im shame so the user never has to see its putrid face.
Linux encourages terminal use, including it as one of the base starting icons in most distros.
That’s my guess, anyways.
I’m pretty comfortable on the command line, but I also won’t hesitate to boot a live disk and
dd if=/dev/zerothe main hard drive the moment my gui refuses to load.Yep, same. The main thing Linux has taught me over the years is to keep good, regular backups of everything important.
I’ve lost way too much data already by fucking up grub somehow, or by accidentally letting windows overwrite the efi partition or some bullshit. I know how to recover from that now, but back in the day when I was doing dumb shit to my os pretty much every day, I didn’t.
That was all 100% my own fault btw
The simple mans solution.
BTW, yast exists. I use it if I’m to lazy to research how stuff works.
I just installed Tumbleweed on my laptop alongside my main install (arch btw) to try it out, but I haven’t had a chance to mess with yast yet.
It’s open source, they can just make their own distro.
And that attitude is why Linux is struggling to gain market cap imho.
Yes they can, but maybe we need to embrace those who arent tech saavy?
Saying if you dont like it, go do your own thing is not very welcoming.
We should encourage people to create their own distribution, but maybe welcome people with open arms first, guide them to a flavour that works for them, and then encourage them to learn how to make it exactly what they want
Haha market cap, market share , they’re still all about selling stuff so dont really apply./ Market share is normally measured in share of revenue in most industries.
There are lots of webpages, tutorials, youtubes and stuff like that for these people already. I’m sure they can also pay companies like canonical for more dedicated support if that’s what they need.
If you want to welcome people, go ahead and do it, nothing stopping you. Create the webpage or forum or youtube channel, distribution, or write the book whatever is missing. Just make sure to moderate it to remove CLI based answers and block users like me.
“I” exist and I’m sure I’m never going to be part of your “we”. The current situation of linux home user base seems just fine to me without pandering to a load of windows users. I think you should work on your desired subculture and keep me out if it. Leave me out of it - i can stay over here under my bridge in linuxmemes wearing my new programming socks.
For the home market maybe you can look at valve and steamdeck or something as an example of an acessible linux sub-culture. Valve doesn’t maintain and support that for free though. It’d be interesting to know how many full time employees they have on steamdeck OS just for the one device (and maybe a few gaming perpherals) and one GUI. Then expand that to all esoteric hardware and all GUIs . . .
I guess chromeOS and a few forks of that is another similar example - i think that’s still linux kernel based - some limitations on hardware i think.What I’d actually like to see is B2B growth (for user ) - but I don’t think linux will ever be bought by employers like mine - I know how the procurement department operates - and I can’t see that changing. There are plenty of people who don’t need my support trying business sales, redhat, canonical, suse etc and more power to them - but microsoft didn’t get big in B2B by being usable, nor by nor having “no CLI”, nor by having a supportive community to home users. They just packaged it in a way that ticked all the boxes for the corpo procurement types - though most B2B customers do need their own dedicated user support.
My presumption is that we want people too so using Windows and supporting Microsoft/Apple
If you don’t agree with that there really isn’t much for you and I to discuss, my above view doesn’t make much sense without that presumption.
So, do you think the world would be better if people stopped using Microsoft?
Market cap? Which stock symbol is it? 😉
Couldn’t think of a more appropriate term, feel free to suggest some better terms
Market share
Why, no really tell me why we need to embrace nontechnical Linux users? What exactly does Linux have to gain? Because afaik nontechnical users dont donate, don’t contribute, and dont even appreciate the software or the work maintainers put into it (and they complain far more often). Theres always “x feature doesnt work” or “y app isn’t compatible” and suddenly “Linux isn’t ready yet”.
Well, first of all that’s just elitist/gatekeeping thinking and i find it quite frustrating. If you think about it, it’s kind of like the “we don’t want immigrants, they cause much work, cost us much and don’t contribute”. A higher market share always comes with benefits and with drawbacks. There will always be more people who contribute if the market share is higher. The same with hardware compatibility. Having widely adopted open source software will always benefit the community.
Theres a fundamental difference between installing an operating system and immigration. That difference is the value of human life. Once again Linux is not a corporate product, there is no commercial benefit in mass adoption. Furthermore the people who contribute are for the most part technical users. Using your example the fact is nearly every country gives citizenship to skilled workers far faster and for a very good reason.
Okay, I see that this comparison wasn’t really good. Thinking more about it it reads like a straw man argument and i’m sorry for that.
It indeed woudn’t offer a commercial benefit, but I do really think that it would offer a benefit humanity. Because it would lessen the power that Mocrosoft has over the computer market. If the market share is high enough it would even spark innovation because Microsoft and co would be forced to innovate to keep their market share.
I know many people who would like to have an alternative to Windows, without the hurdles Linux still comes with. And I would like to be able to tell them that there is one but sadly I can’t.
Well yea, Linux is about learning how the computer works; wheras windows wants to hide it
Linux is software.
It doesn’t contain this intrinsic meaning you refer to.
Linux is FOSS, maybe check that up?
No. This may be the case for some distros like Gentoo or Arch, but applying this to the whole ecosystem and expecting everyone to even be interested in computers (which they should not fucking have to be to use a user-friendly Linux) is what alienates people.
Exactly. If Linux expects me to open a program before I can use it, that’s already too complicated for most people. I want to just tell the computer what I want and have it so it for me. I don’t want to know what a file is or what Firefox does, leave that nerd shit out of my OS.
Then go to apple or smth?
Using the terminal is actually telling the computer what to do.
Linux is community made and it will kill itself it it doesn’t reproduce.
Linix needs people to understand it, so we can maintain it.
iPhone is too complicated for most people who don’t want to know what an app is
It’s always going to feel like this even if you never need a terminal for one simple reason:
When you google “how to XX on linux,” you’re going to find a stackexchange page where someone else asked, and someone answered with a terminal command instead of “Ok what DE are you using? Ok, so you’re gonna want to click these seventeen different menu options, and I don’t remember them without looking at them myself.” It’s just always going to be easier to send someone a string of ~30char to type than to try and figure out their GUI without screensharing.
Yep. Every Linux problem has the exact same solution: ctrl-c, ctrl-v.
Tbf, of course it is better to understand what those commands do too, but it always starts there! (And maybe a youtube tutorial or two for cd, ls, pwd, history, etc.)
