• Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 months ago

    Snubbing bluesky is a great way to get people to not take you seriously. When you’re making a recruitment thing like this you need to remember you’re trying to draw in people who don’t fully agree with you.

      • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        The fact that you or anyone thinks that matters is part of the problem. Not every federated site needs to be federated with every other federated site. That’s half the point of federation.

    • secret300@lemmy.sdf.org
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      2 months ago

      Bluesky isn’t federated as much as they pretend to be and say “they’re working on it”

      It’s just another corporate social platform that will fall into the same thing

      • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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        2 months ago

        Psst, OP included Signal in this post which isn’t federated at all, so the argument of Bluesky not being “federated as much as they pretend to” is a bit irrelevant.

          • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            Things I’ve learned: the people in this community hate bluesky on principle, their principles are insular and toxic, and they can’t read.

            This is why people aren’t going to mastadon more than Bluesky; because y’all’re insufferable. I made the comment in context of the post, so why would you ignore it?

    • Lazycog@sopuli.xyz
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      2 months ago

      Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn’t belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on “Sup” that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyz
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          2 months ago

          Yeah… I’m bit afraid of “kbin Ernest Effect” (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.

          Haven’t followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.

          The kickstarter was a good idea.

          • ApollosArrow@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyz
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          2 months ago

          There isn’t much information about “Sup”, but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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            2 months ago

            Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷‍♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂

            IMHO Sup. isn’t going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed’s new popularity and maybe Loops.

            • Lazycog@sopuli.xyz
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              2 months ago

              Oh! didn’t know that, I thought activitypub can’t be used for secure messaging. Lol really hope its XMPP!

              Yeah I didn’t take it that seriously when it was announced right now. Just hope pixelfed stays afloat amidst the user flood and hope he can publish loops as open source soon!

        • apex32@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.

          On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.

          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.

            On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters.

            Ah dang, that’s good to know (though I’m not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren’t supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy’s markdown formatting hasn’t entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink [2] formatting where the autolinks don’t even render [1].

            I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.

            References
            1. “Kalcifer” @Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de. “Fediverse” !fediverse@lemmy.world. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
              • Raw Text:
                Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized. 
                
                ::: spoiler References
                1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. <https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server>.
                   - This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
                2. "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)>.
                   - ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers".
                     > Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […]
                3. "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z.  <https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/>.
                   1. ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6
                      > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
                   2. ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6.
                      > An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
                :::
                
                • Rendered:

                • In the rendered text there are no links; however, there should be links at the end, as is shown by the CommonMark autolinks in the raw text.
            2. “CommonMark Spec”. John MacFarlane. CommonMark. Version: 0.31.2. Published: 2024-01-28. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:51Z. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/#uri-autolink.
              • §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.

                A URI autolink consists of <, followed by an absolute URI followed by >. It is parsed as a link to the URI, with the URI as the link’s label.

            • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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              2 months ago

              Dang 😕. See my comment for a related response.

              I recommend reporting the bug to the Sync devs to fix their Markdown formatting to improve feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.

    • namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev
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      2 months ago

      but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.

      The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin’s puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider’s service.

      I don’t understand why we’ve forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it’s worth it in my opinion. I really wish we’d start seeing government regulation that says “you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service.” I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        My comment wasn’t protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP’s post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.

    • amzd@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      it’s decentralized

      No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

      Signal relies on centralized servers

      For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        it’s decentralized

        No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

        Signal relies on centralized servers

        I was using “decentralized” to mean that there isn’t centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].

        This is more an argument of definitions, though. I’m not trying to claim anything in bad faith.

        References
        1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
          • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
        • amzd@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:

          Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.

          Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.

          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            That’s just open source, not decentralized.

            Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).

          • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within

            Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers all offering the same service.

    • jollyrogue@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.

      Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.

      XMPP is federated and decentralized.

        • jollyrogue@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.

          Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.

  • Lyre@lemmy.ca
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    2 months ago

    Anyone know if loops has a good app out, or if there’s one in the works thats coming out soon?

      • dumbass@leminal.space
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        2 months ago

        My favourite Dansup line is " It’s coming this weekend" not sure when this weekend is supposed to come around tho.

        From what I’ve seen on the loops discord he’s about to open source the app and self hosted backend real soon, he’s been reaching out for people to set up and test out the server code.

        Same with federation, that’s not far away, I think he wants to test how the different instances connect to each other first before the wider federation.

        He’s finally starting to look for coders to help him with the backend and app tho, so that’s a good start.

        • reev@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          And I really do appreciate that. He’s doing some good stuff and really hope pixelfed and loops (and sup) continue on the momentum that they’ve got and gain a substantial enough Userbase that they’re really enjoyable to use. Just wanted to add the extra context because I think that’s relevant too!

          • dumbass@leminal.space
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            2 months ago

            He just really needs to let people help him more, he makes good stuff but it’s kinda obvious it’s getting a bit much for him sometimes, which is how we ended up with the stuff in your link lol.

            A few times I’ve jumped in to the pixelfed discord before he split loops into its own one and he’d be in some crazy long rant, then you’d see him delete all his messages, dude needs a break or to delegate some of his work to the people who keep asking to help.

            Good dude tho, just needs a rest I think, the tik tok thing kinda put some pressure on him to get it going quicker I think.

    • derbolle@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      technically nothing but it serves as a privacy respecting alternative to meta/google controlled messengers.

      things like mastodon and pixelfed are rather easy to wrap your head around and replace their big tech counterparts with if you are the average user.

      there is no real replacement for an instant messaging/sms like experience. matrix is at the moment still a bit too complicated to get into if you have come to expect a workflow like: download an app -> write your phone contacts a message.

      so although it is not federated it is the best we have got at the moment in my opinion

      • Jake Farm@sopuli.xyz
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        2 months ago

        I get that but the image is referring to it as part of the “fediverse” which it is not as it doesn’t use ActivityPub.

      • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        There’s also SimpleX, though it’s much less popular. (not like Signal is used everywhere though, it’s just a matter of what you switch your group to.)

          • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            It’s cool, thought people should still be wary of it since it’s new and backed by VC.

            I’d give it a little more until i switch fully to it, but it 100% is better than WA.

        • acockworkorange@mander.xyz
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          2 months ago

          Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It really looks like they managed to make an ID less chat as simple as possible. But the undeniable benefit of using one’s phone as ID is that when people switch, their contacts are already there. I think that friction alone will prevent normies from adopting it.

          • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            You’re welcome :) (btw, nice username)

            Yeah they’ve tried to make it as similar as whatsapp. But it’s hard convincing your entire family to switch again after signal just because you found a cool new app to switch to, lol

    • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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      2 months ago

      The post is really about abandoning the tech oligarchy more than specifically using federated technology.

    • Jerkface (any/all)@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      I miss Jabber so much. There was a brief time where my one XMPP client and an easy to install server could let me chat with everyone I knew, whether they were on ICQ, Y!, gchat, MSN, IRC, or AIM. We fucking HAD interoperability.

  • chanteoma@lemmy.ml
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    2 months ago

    Hi, I think too many people are focusing too much on the type of software included in this chart. I don’t think the goal of the person that created the chart was to create the ultimate guide to move to the Fediverse or FOSS apps with all the options available for them. I believe it prioritizes simplicity, and it’s clearly directed towards people unaware that these alternatives exist.

    Most people I know don’t even know what the Fediverse is, and I think this initiative is for them.

    I know that debating which FOSS/Fedi apps are the best is a big matter of concern for people that are already aware of the problems some platform have. But focusing too much on this debate not only creates more division among supporters of FOSS/Fedi, but it is also drawing attention from the main point: Bringing more people to the Fediverse.

        • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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          2 months ago

          You think email’s UI is only “slightly” different than the UI of chats? I disagree very strongly. The two are extremely different. Email is this weird amalgamation of messages and forums depending on how your client displays it and everyone in the email thread is using it. You can have arbitrarily styling in messages. You can send messages to whoever whenever. Chats are much more focused and linear by comparison.

        • AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Not sure what to say to that. Nobody in my group would consider classic email and IMs equivalent, unless you’re layering an extra UI layer on top like what the other commentor mentioned.

          • WalrusDragonOnABike [they/them]@reddthat.com
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            2 months ago

            Agreed most others wouldn’t use email as a replacement for casual chat, but its always seemed like an arbitrary choice. So many people waste so much space in emails because they treat them like letters, so the biggest difference seems to be the culture around them rather than the medium itself. If people formatted all text messages as

            "Hello Dear Friend,

            Here is stuff to waste space.

            Here’s what I actually want to say.

            More extra stuff.

            Sincerely, Walrus"

            I doubt we would see that much of a difference between them.

            • Zeoic@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              They are treated like letters because they arent instant, like letters. Hell, some emails could take full minutes to send.

        • AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          Oh sure, if you’re using something like that I can get behind it. But then you’re back to the network effect. Probably slightly mitigated since everybody has email, even if they’re not getting it in a pretty IM format and won’t be replying to it on the spot.

    • spaduf@slrpnk.net
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      2 months ago

      Folks should also check out neodb.social . it’s good reads, letterboxd, and steam reviews all in one.

      • BruisedMoose@piefed.social
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        2 months ago

        I’ve been looking for something to track my physical book, music, and game collections. An instance of this might work nicely. Thanks!

    • LoganNineFingers@lemmy.ca
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      2 months ago

      It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I’ve been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best

  • Victor@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Thank you for this! Bookmarked this post, downloaded the image, sent it to all my friends. Love you!

  • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 months ago

    Could the software selection be more diverse? There’s also MBin/Piefed, and Misskey/Sharkey/Firefish/Akkoma/Iceshrimp. Just a suggestion tho. (obviously they can’t all fit in the image, but it would be nice to see an alternative to popular software like lemmy/mastodon.)

    PS: Signal is not federated at all, it’s centralized. It should either be replaced with SimpleX or matrix/Jabber.

    • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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      2 months ago

      Could the software selection be more diverse?

      Not if you want people to actually consider switching instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.

      • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        If only there was a website that helps you choose, instead of inclining users to just use lemmy and only lemmy.world anyway. (also with mastodon and mastodon.social).

        Overall i think more software choices are great but you are right in that it could repel users :/