i’ve just seen a comment in a post, in this very community, saying people trust signal because of missinformation (from what i could undertand).
if this is true, then i have a few questions:
-what menssaging app should i use for secure communications? i need an app that balances simplicity and security.
-how to explain it to my friends who use signal because i recomended?
-what this means for other apps in general?
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Perfect is the enemy of good. Moving to Signal would be way better than getting analysis paralysis and staying with Whatsapp.
deleted by creator
The actual quote is: “Perfect is the enemy of good enough.”
Source?
It was on the leaked Paragon Solutions selfie (containing the Graphite surveillance tool), indicating there are actively exploited zero days? Just a guess.
Edit: https://open.substack.com/pub/ahmedeldin/p/the-israeli-spyware-firm-that-accidentally
Those reports do NOT show active zero days in signal. The pieces of spyware talked about in those are capable of reading messages once already having compromised a device which isn’t insane as if you have access to read storage from a device arbitrarily, of course you can just read the messages. If you want to solve this, A: Use GrapheneOS or an iPhone on lockdown mode with data over USB disabled or B: Use Molly with local encryption.
It’s fine as long as you don’t do something silly like invite a journalist to your top secret government group chat.
Or use a third party client that doesn’t have as much scrutiny on the source code and will Leak your message s
man imagine trusting in an israeli signal fork lmao
Would you say Molly is big/trustworthy enough for this to be negligible, or is it a huge risk?
Molly basically is a fork of the signal client that switches out some notification based things (such as your notifications going through fcm and such) and instead lets you use unifiedpush and/or a molly websocket. Apart from this they’re both the same. Molly uses signal’s codebase.
Molly also supports full database encryption and replaces all proprietary blobs in signal iirc
Given what you’ve said, Signal is still what you want and is good for it.
There are two main issues people have with Signal:
First is that it requires a phone number to sign up. That makes some people who want it to be truly anonymous unhappy. It’s not meant to be anonymous, though. It’s meant to be private. Those aren’t the same thing.
Second is that it runs on AWS. This isn’t a problem in the sense that it’s possible for it to still retain privacy while running on AWS. Some people don’t like it because they view the dependence on the infrastructure of an American company to be a risk to availability. They also believe that it would exacerbate a security flaw if one were found.
Personally, I know these risks and still find it to be the best balance between privacy, security, and ease of use.
And what about suspicion of intrusions in some accounts of european imlrtznts poeple by the FSB recently ?
I don’t know if it’s a social ingeneering
But now, i think “good enough” attitude is not the good idéal, we are not in 2000’ it’s finish…
Another app exists :
Session
simpleX
Anonymous messenger
Briar
Twinme
But it’ always better to use a verified and audited app, need to have a safe team
Second is that it runs on AWS. This isn’t a problem in the sense that it’s possible for it to still retain privacy while running on AWS. Some people don’t like it because they view the dependence on the infrastructure of an American company to be a risk to availability. They also believe that it would exacerbate a security flaw if one were found.
Let’s not pretend the hypervisor doesn’t have full access to the VMs memory and execution. The only thing protecting the Signal server is Intel SGX.
I don’t think Signal trusts the AWS server either, that’s the point of E2EE encryption.
I’m not claiming the contents of the messages are at risk here. You’re social graph and metadata though is another story.
The only data they store are account creation time and last connection time.
The thing if someone has memory access Signal doesn’t need to store anything, transiting data is now available. For example all of your contacts when doing contact discovery. It used to be a simple hash, something for which you could build a rainbow table in a few hours, at the worst. It’s lightly better now, but still.
Don’t take it from me, take it from Moxie:
https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
It also doesn’t really matter if the software itself can easily be tampered with in memory by the hypervisor. Like I said, they are putting a lot of trust in Intel SGX.
And let’s not even get into the digital sovereignty issues, and financing of right wing billionaires. Yes, running on AWS is an issue. It’s multiple issues even.
I don’t take anything from someone I don’t trust that also explicitly doesn’t use warrant canaries because he says they don’t work in contradiction to every legal authority.
It’s also an issue that they run the signal server on one single AWS region.
It isn’t hard or even all that expensive to run on multiple regions.
It’s not me you need to tell this though.
https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
Since the enclave attests to the software that’s running remotely, and since the remote server and OS have no visibility into the enclave, the service learns nothing about the contents of the client request. It’s almost as if the client is executing the query locally on the client device.
… Providing you trust Intel SGX (and AWS for giving them access to actual SGX and not just emulating a compromised instruction set)
The usual conspiracy theory is that Signal is funded by the CIA and therefore a honey pot.
what menssaging app should i use for secure communications? i need an app that balances simplicity and security.
Signal. I can do almost everything that i.e. WhatsApp or Telegram offer, is as easy to use as those and the client is verifiably encrypted and secure.
how to explain it to my friends who use signal because i recomended?
Explain what exactly? Why they should use it?
- It offers the same functionality as other messengers while being verifiably secure and encrypted.
- Signal collects only three datapoints of users
- Date of registration
- Date of last connection to the server
- Your encrypted backups if you enable cloud backups
- Compare that to messengers such as WhatsApp and Telegram where it is not clear which information they collect, whether they store it in an encrypted format or not or who they share it with.
- In the case of WhatsApp it is at least the US government as required by the Cloud Act.
- In case of Telegram the data is unencrypted by default and cooperation with various governments has been reported.
what this means for other apps in general?
Please clarify the question.
the part of the “conspiracy theory” about CIA funding is completely true: signal proudly say they get funding from the OTF, which at the time signal started was a subsidiary of Radio Free Asia, which started out as an open CIA project (before being relaunched as clearly still a CIA project but without the official acknowledgement).
I’m 50:50 on whether signal is a literal honeypot, but even if not it seems pretty likely that the US government wouldn’t have funded an app that could be used by people breaking its laws - let alone people actively organizing against it (foreign spies, domestic revolutionaries and insurrectionists) unless they were getting something pretty big in return.
In return they get an actually secure messing app they can use without having to support it themselves. Which is pretty big.
The epstein files have proven that conspiracy theories are true. Of course powerful gangsters conspire. We already knew that since forever.
Ok, because the thing, that everybody knew turned out to be true, every conspiracy theory is valid now?
I guess you should go visit the Nazis in New Swabia and discuss this revelation with them.
The epstein files have proven that conspiracy theories are true.
So the Earth really is flat and run by lizard people?
Be careful with your wording. Yes, some conspiracy theories are true to some degree. But there’s also ones that are complete bunk.
Maybe you should reply to that comment you’ve mentioned and ask them to explain why they’re spreading FUD.
not to shit on you specifically but I see this over and over, folks asking how to be “secure”. secure against what?
if you’re into this, you need to set up a “threat model” i.e. what are your threat vectors and then you build your defenses against that model. a defense against blanket surveillance doesn’t handle targeted threats. a successful defense against your government doesn’t preclude other nation-state actors getting at you.
like, if your threat vector is e.g. your SO “inspecting” your phone, you set up a passcode and you’re safe against that threat. but, if there’s a toddler going around smashing stuff, your defense isn’t valid. defense against that vector is placing your phone high up. but that defense isn’t effective against SO.
I am sure any messenger recommended here can be successfully red-teamed, be it design flaws, operator error, the famous wrench comic, or whathaveyou. but that doesn’t mean it’s ineffective in your specific case.
Yes, i hate this in these kinds of discussions. It so often devolves into how you’ll be safe from surveillance by world governments (spoiler: you won’t be, if they really care).
And here I am, just not wanting to hand data over to giant corporations that have been proven to use it for no good.
Heck, even if there was no good actor/solution, not giving all your data to the same bad actor is already a step up.
There is none. Theres like 0.1% of people who complain about it who have a valid point.
And those points are always meaningless in light of the alternative’s drawbacks.
Agreed. I would add that most detractors don’t understand what a threat model is and want a perfect solution, for no cost, and easy to use. Something which is impossible.
Even the alternatives like Briar acknowledge on their FAQ that Signal has pros
Being tied to US infrastructure isn’t a valid concern?
What then is the difference between it and Whatsapp? Both claim to use the Signal secure protocol but you can never confirm that since their codebases are closed source and proprietary.
Signal is open source. GitHub
One is run by an advertising company that has been proven in court to be a bad actor and a strong motive to log and track anything they can
The other is a non-profit without any real motive to sell you out, or any history of doing so
Thats good enough for me and most others unless you’re an extreme “trust no one” level of paranoia
Its in usa, and its big. The chance that its compromised by cia is 100%.
Considering that all other alternatives are either
- extremely difficult if not impossible for non-technical users to leverage, or
- much, much worse, up to even eagerly giving out your data
I consider Signal to be the best option out there. It’s not perfect, but nothing is. It simply is the best general option out there, by far, for a general audience.
Yes, you can be totally secure, untraceable, and ultimately unfindable. But being cut into pieces, with each separate piece entombed in its own barrel of concrete, and each barrel dropped into a different oceanic trench, tends to be a bit beyond what I consider to be reasonable to achieve that.
everyone around here talking about the CIA and nation states as part of their threat model…
bro… you’re worried about the CIA and mossad, and you think spinning up your own chat servers (simplex, matrix, etc.) as an amateur sysadmin is going to be MORE secure?
XD you think the CIA can’t crack your closet server? Bruh, get real.
There is no problem
PRODUCT PITCH: Hey everyone, I have a great idea for a secure / private messaging service.
It’s hosted in the US, subject to its pervasive spying laws including national security letters.
Also I need all your phone numbers.
Also no you can’t host this yourself, I run the only server.
Everyone who uses signal and supports it, is falling for this pitch.
I have managed to get all my friendship group on signal and we use it daily. While it does have its flaws (mainly being centralised and US based), I try in life to not let perfect be the enemy of good. Until there’s a stable and easy to use alternative I can point my friends to, I imagine we’ll stay on Signal.
Signal does have your phone number, which is a problem.
On the other hand, the only information linked to that phone number is, “the person with this phone number uses signal”. AFAIK your phone number is not linked to your contacts, your message content, etc.
So in practice, the fact that Signal has your phone number is probably only a problem insofar as you don’t want anybody to know that you use Signal.
But to be fair, why have that issue if you don’t have to. Signal is actually good, still, but there are even better alternatives.
Signal is actually good, still, but there are even better alternatives.
… Would you care to list some of these alternatives and how they are better?
Every alternative I’ve looked at has some major drawbacks that would prevent me from getting any of my friends to move. Having to selfhost my own chat service isn’t really a positive in my mind due to the maintenance required and the higher possibility of outages.
list some of these alternatives
Probably the ones you’re already thinking of (SimpleX, Session, XMPP).
how they are better?
They’re better in terms of privacy. When I said they’re better, I mean specifically in terms of privacy.
Of course they’re less convenient, as you’re alluding to.
Signal gets me all the privacy I need. I don’t care if they know my phone number uses Signal, I don’t use it as anonymous chat, I use it with friends and family.
As others in this post have said, Signal handles privacy perfectly fine, it does not provide anonymity.Unlike several other users here, I actually view Signal’s contact discoverability as a feature, not a security flaw. All it means is if someone I know installs Signal, they can easily send me a message without a complicated back and forth through some other medium.
I myself said “Signal is actually good”, so there’s no need to argue with me about it.
Nevertheless:
I actually view Signal’s contact discoverability as a feature, not a security flaw
Of course it can be both. Many things are both features in one domain, and flaws in another domain. Obviously it’s a feature or else they wouldn’t have purposely developed it.
Well, it’s 100% linked to your contacts in one way or another because when you install it Signal will happily alert you to which ones of your contacts are already using Signal. I can’t see how they could manage that without slurping up your contact information.
AFAIK the client slurps up your contacts, but the E2E encryption ensures that the Signal server cannot actually see those.
I can’t see how they could manage that without slurping up your contact information.
Signal is alright IMO.
There is no perfect service. Thats why smarter people than me analyze this and talk about it: https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html
I think deltachat is pretty cool. Decentralised, open source and quite easy to use and setup.For me it is something for friends willing to try out new stuff and as a fallback when signal fails.
Delta chat is the best. Especially with webxdc’s.
I am under the impression that Signal encrypts metadata so that is useless to sell. The only thing they can turn over to law enforcement after a lawful warrant is the phone number an account was opened with (and maybe the date that happened) and the date of the last time the account was used. That is all.
Don’t they also need to store who to send your messages? From a technical point of view?
They store where to deliver the message, but not from who that message came.
Didnt know abput that.
Signal is the best “easy” alternative. And DIY leaves many holes for rookie errors.
Do explain what makes it better than SimpleX Chat?
My contact coulds find me by phone number. I changes my status on WhatsApp and half of the regular contacts decided to use Signal. If I want to use SimpleX I would have to invite them all and just hope they’ll adopt.
I don’t need my phone number to be private. I want my communication to be private.
You deciding to invite your contacts to Signal isn’t really Signal being better though.
Better at connecting with the people in my life, the people that I want to stay in touch with on a regular basis.
Would love to use SimpleX too, but the plan fell apart while trying to use it with family. Surprisingly many people fail to grasp the concept of anything other than a phone number, social media profile, or email address. It fell apart among my more tech-savvy friends because we missed calls and had delayed notifications despite SimpleX eating through the battery like no other messaging app.
No doubt, SimpleX is the concept of a messaging app done right and could be better than any other. It’s just the implementation that needs work. But I’d be happy to hear if there’s any optimizations I could try and revisit it.
It’s an easy alternative. It took me a decade to get my friends to download a second app
