- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- technology@beehaw.org
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So, I setup meshtastic.
Put an antenna on my roof.
Have a decent number of mesh radios. Put one in each car in relay mode.
Setup a locally run LLM and made an interface to it.
Working on setting up a BBS.
I’m in the high density suburbs, I can, when the weather is just right, reach a single node that doesn’t seem to be able to reach any other nodes.
If I go on a drive, I can see 5-10 nodes.
Adoption in the mid-Atlantic US is just so damn low, it’s not really usable.
We need some antennas up high, but there aren’t any reasonable options around me.
In my area, some people put small solar nodes on top of high buildings (office, university, and apartment). The node on my roof can directly communicate with one of these nodes ~20km away. Pretty crazy tor something that can run indefinitely on a 18650 battery and small solar panel. I’ve heard some people just place “guerilla nodes” to extend coverage.
So, I have rolling hills, but every ideal spot has a cell phone mast, I’m thinking they’d notice. There are some power pylons, I think they’d notice as well. Either one of those would probably be a felony.
None of the buildings are tall enough, it’s US suburbia. I have a drone, i could probably airdrop a small solar node on a roof.
There’s a really large water tower a couple miles away, not LOS, but it would be amazing to help the cause. But again, I don’t think that would go over well and i’m not fond enough of heights to install it.
Tree?
A tree would be neat, how the heck do you get solar to it though?
I need do some experiments with my drone and see if I can get LOS to somewhere useful. The development I’m in has a hill in the way and no trees. I don’t really want to try to sneak it on my neighbor’s roof.
There’s a 5-story apt building, not to far, but i’m not sure it has RLOS to the school and it has no service areas on top, all tin roofing.
There’s a 3-story hotel that has the right kind of roof layout, but it’s way out of RLOS from me.
Could you ask your neighbor?
If you had convenient trees you pick a pine tree that is bare that hasn’t been outcompeted by other trees. It doesn’t work as well with decidous forests.
Ahh damn, yeah, the only pines we get here are hand-planted… good info though, thank you!
Meshcore 😎 you could see if there’s more density of MC around you.
There are 4 in my metropolitan area, and I don’t have line of sight to any of them :(
There are about 30 meshtastic in the same area, but most of them are out of range to each other.
I even stood one up at work on the other side of town and mqtt’d them together.
edit: a’ight I put it on a t114. can’t see anything from the house, track practice is 25mi away, lets see if there are any quiet core nodes out there.
edit: edit: Nothing at all. Which is a fing shame, the client is way nicer, it’s better on battery. It’s better on battery on the t114. The map is faster. I think it’s probably a better product since you can kind of emulate the client/router setup and it can work like meshtastic. Maybe I’ll leave my of my v3’s running on it in the attic with a modest antenna upgrade.
Heck yeah get on the map. My area sees new repeaters weekly. If you build it they will come and it sounds like you know what to do.
No wonder how hard it would be to bridge mesh core in MQTT in my area.
So much of our infrastructure uses the internet now that if it goes down I wouldn’t be shocked if electric grids, healthcare, shopping, public transport, etc also shit the bed.
Add some batteries to the meshtatic nodes. and even if all electricity and networks go down, you and your friends can still organize and plan.
Internet outages happen all the time. Most of these networks can run independent for a time. And are designed to be so. Only smaller networks have issues because they are not designed as such. But things like toast make a small store feasible to run. If electricity goes out then it has bigger issues, but I’ve seen stores go to hand swipe cards before to keep from closing.
I wonder if that fancy bed company that saw it’s beds freeze 'cos no AWS ever sold to hospitals…
I can only speak for the US, but our electric grids and production are supposed to be air gapped for critical infrastructure. Healthcare? I doubt it based on the continuous leaks there - and medical supply chains are tightly integrated with internet/cloud… Shopping still has a fairly sizeable local accessibility for staple items, certainly food distro where the internet wouldn’t matter for at least a short while, but it’s also tightly integrated for Supply Chain Management, much like Health care - so there could be a run on it.
I’m not sure on public transport, but most are goverment led, so probably air gapped.
There’s also a shitton of dark fiber laying about. Internet infrastructure COULD be brought back up depending on the damage that triggered outages in the first place.
Literally all the ordering for stores uses the internet now; we’d be absolutely fucked for a good while if the internet actually went down in the USA.
I can only speak for the US, but our electric grids and production are supposed to be air gapped for critical infrastructure.
Do oil pipelines count? 'Cos Colonial got hacked and everybody thought they were airgapped.
I think some water facility was too but no serious values were changed - 'cos and admin preferred to sit comfy at home.I’m not exactly standing behind it - just saying what I’ve read. I’m confident nuclear plants are after 9/11. Anything else is probably hit or miss, including petro/gas pipelines, coal, and generating plants specifically. Plus if a bad actor (likely state sanctioned) decides to, they can get through air gaps with spies/traitors/unwitting idiots with a simple USB drive. After air gapped uranium processing centrifuges were wrecked with an errant USB drive, I would expect all systems to disable or remove USB drive connectivity, but I’m sure that’s inconsistent… at best.
After air gapped uranium processing centrifuges were wrecked with an errant USB drive,
I’d forgotten about stuxnet, quite the (technical) feat.
This tech would be great if we had high power nodes all across the globe. But we do not. Maybe a cool idea could be encrypted data over FM radio. The radio stations already exist and are a dying business. Nonprofits could buy up radio stations and rebroadcast data broadly and only those with the encryption keys could decrypt. Cut the ISP out entirely. Like the difference between a local call and a long distance call.
Meshtastic communication would prioritize local hops where they are available and then where there are spans of area without nodes, they could hop across radio broadcasts.
Primary issue would be speed. Next to no bandwidth on a signal like that. Kbps not Mbps. Perhaps an incentive for much better compression as well.
For anyone reading this currently, it appears that regulation bans any form of encryption over HAM radio broadcasts. So I guess that’s one reason this won’t work.
How would they find out ?
A high powered antenna that transmits a lot of “static” would be a dead giveaway.
It’s not really static. It’s digital, the transmission scheme has structure. It’s only the transmitted data that is encrypted, but you’d have to first unpack the transmission to get to the data.
I understand. I was replying to how gov agencies would find out. Any digital transmission is basically “static” to an analog receiver.
True, you could send encrypted data via morse code. Nothing but a pure tone.
It’s also slow AF. It’s potentially faster to have someone read you text than get it by packet over radio.
Regulations can be changed?
Packet over radio does exist, and it’s sloooooooooooooow and there’s tons of loss. Imagine the first modems over phone lines, then slow it down more.
Legally, in the US, it can’t be encrypted, either. A single geostationary satellite would be faster, especially if latency wasn’t an issue.
I don’t think you’re going to be downloading a linux distro over this system. It’s probably just going to be text and the most basic data,
That’s what the internet was, at first
Yep, but what we had access to was far, far different than what we see today. I wouldn’t have a problem with basic features like FTP, telnet, newsgroups or whatever, but the content will be limited. Gonna be back to dialup speeds.
That’s what the last bit of my comment was about. Compression would need significant improvement before it were usable for most things people use the internet for.
I’m not sure compression would solve the issue I mentioned - this would be probably more akin to using Napster to DL a song in 2001 via dialup, or trying to get an image off a newsgroup at best. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be useful, just very limited. Like I said, you’re not getting a full distro this way.
Sounds like a better idea to implement as a reticulum medium.
The internet will get back up if it goes down. It is very decentralized. Sea cables and DNS is where most of the centralization occurs, and DNS going down is not at all the end of the internet. How man sea cables have to be broken at once for the internet to break, I’m not entirely sure.
Meshtastic is a cool thing and it is very useful, internet up or down.
That won’t help for situations where a government shuts down access to the internet.
How resistant would this be to jamming? Iran managed to black out Starlink.
And how trackable is it? Not sure how many people would be prepared to run one of these boxes if the Revolutionary Guard are going to come knocking.
It’s pretty easy to jam as it’s just radio waves. Increase the noise on the channel and the chirps of your msg don’t get heard. That said there are some options to vary the channel as a group, and jamming a broad and robust mesh completely vs an area of nodes is a bit harder.
Trackable as in traceable? You mean finding your node location? By default not overly difficult but again, can be set up to make it hard to find you.
Wouldn’t it be pretty easy to track down the source since its just radio?
Yes, which is why I said it wouldn’t be overly difficult, especially with access to military equipment. TDOA could fairly easily pinpoint a signal location. Meshtastic is generally chatty but you can do stuff like reduce transmissions, and limit the amount of hops your msgs can make etc. or even if you knew who you were sending to, make it directional so it’s harder to hear you. That said with the right tech, actively looking for nodes and listening to a chatty mesh radio it wouldn’t be hard.
Riots fix that, not meshtastic
Riots are better coordinated when people can communicate wirelessly
A government can shut down a riot of 10,000
It struggles with 10 1,000 person riots.
I think at that point it’s more of a revolution than a riot, but I agree
No doubt, but meshtastic really is a temporary solution, but a very good solution since it’s only necessary for a temporary amount of time. I’m just saying there aren’t really many cases outside of a catastrophic mass human extinction event that would disable the internet infrastructure beyond maybe a few years if that. Won’t be a library of alexandria moment from a connectivity side, but which servers are still up is the real question
I didn’t know riots and protests 50+ years ago depended on the internet. Crazy.
they depended on communication
You missed the word “better”.
I never said meshtastic is a hard requirement.
If they shut the Internet and there is a decent meshtastic network they will jam that as well.
This is a non answer. yes, hypothetically they can, but the whole point of finding alternative channels is to make it difficult for them to do so, to the point that they might not even try.
That pessimism of “they can jam it anyways” is like saying do not wear a helmet while riding a bike, if you are meant to die that day, you will die regardless of head protection.
Plus, it will take resources for them to jam things, and the more resources they need to do that shit the faster it will deplete them and the less they can do, it is so obvious I do not know how to write it without sounding demeaning.
Maybe so, but incompetence is persistent within fascist organizations, and it adds an extra problem for them to deal with, which has value for that fact alone.
It adds a lot of extra risk since each node is a constant radio beacon that is easily trackable.
Compared with handheld radio that broadcast and disappear.
Friend: do not underestimate how much greed the cel companies are capable of. Many have been working on their own satellite setups in preparation and blasting it in everyone’s face lately.
There are normally only a few points at which traffic enters the country. Shutting them down will effectively cut you from most of the Internet, and the rest that remains will be fully in the jurisdiction that oppresses you.
I should download classic wow servers game and addons for long term storage in case of WW3 🤔 and wikipedia too
wow before wiki… priorities.
Culture is important ! Science too I guess hut we have libraries
I’ve not been recycling my tin cans and I have a whole shitload of string. Happy to share.
I’ll take 3 bags full. One for the master (coordinator) and one for the slave (endpoints), and one for the little girl who lives down the lane (Fitgirl Repacks)
My remembering of that line is “and one for the dame”, and I grew up in the deep south…strange
I ad-libbed to make my horrible analogy work. I am beyond regret
Nah. It was good.
Queue IT Crowd episode…
😭
How close do you need to be to another node to get it to work?
I don’t know, numbers online vary wildly.
How resilient is something like Meshtastic? My understanding is that anyone can configure their device poorly so that it can become overly chatty, congesting the network. Even in ideal an ideal scenario with properly configured nodes, could this actually survive if it saw more than hobbiest adoption?
I think it’s really cool and i like having this idea of a backup communication system, but if has serious range limitations and is likely to be overwhelmed in a no-cell scenario is it even worth it, or is it just fun to play around with?
By default it implements rough limits that you cannot exceed to make sure that you do not not transmit too much noise. Additionally, you can always establish private channels for your nodes and / or not retransmit at all.
Meshtastic isn’t intended for mission-critical uses or as an internet substitute. It is intended for very basic text based communication (e.g. between your friends) or remote IoT devices.
The congestion argument also applies to all radio based communication, there are always people transmitting with high gain, noisy outputs or spam.
Yeah, I understand the limitations of the frequency and the compromises mesh networks have to make. I wouldn’t expect it to be an internet substitute. My point is, and I do apologise because I cannot remember the source, I recall hearing about a convention or a protest or some larger gathering where people tried to use Meshtastic and it cratered due to load.
If that above case actually did happen and I’m not mis-remembering, then it doesn’t bode well for adoption by the non-tech savvy. You get into this odd area where you have tech and RF hobbiests that think this is cool beans, but they don’t make up enough people for a robust network. However the more people you bring on that don’t understand radio settings the more succeptible you are to poor performance. Then if it ever does it mass adoption it is likely oitside the abilities of the tech and scale just isn’t possible. You need this sweet spot.
With ham or something else you can have a few people in more remote locations because of superior range, but with low powered RF like Meshtastic you really want portable devices for people on the ground. All this is to say I love the idea of being able to give something like this to a loved one going to a protest or something, but I’m just not sure if it’s more than a toy yet.
I’m not sure what they could do to keep this open while ensuring stability unless they start to add dynamic settings to tje protocol. Something that detects if there’s too much congestion, or if signals are too strong to automatically switch from LongFast to something more applicable to a the dense group you’re in. Then manual settings get hidden behind an advanced menu? But that would be entirely on tje firmware to control.
Anyway, I’m rambling and trying to solution without actually owning one, so I could be way off. I just really like the idea of short range personal communication and want this to be more than a tinker tech.
In Switzerland, we already switched to MediumFast due to congestion in cities. It was a coordinated change and real world tests showed no significant worse mesh performance for most nodes. Meshtastic is evolving fast and I think it does become more and more viable as an off-grid or doomsday communication. It also is hard to censor which could be useful for journalism and free speech. Hence, not a substitute for the internet, but a more and more viable solution for many.
Can’t speak about any mass gatherings or protests, but haven’t had any issues so far with mine. Even in big cities, air util and ch util is below 35% so there is a lot more space available.
I am literally building a network in my town. Love this project, so much fun and useful
What time zone?
Their website is .nl, so it may or may not be Netherlands time, which would be 6PM UTC, I think.
Lot of complex discussions here about Ham radio operator, new hardware or protocol like Mestastic, SDR, etc so I’d start with “just” what people already have at home and only AFTER go there, if need be.
If you have WiFi Mesh at home or IoT via ZigBee or Z-Wave you already are doing mesh networking. Sure you might not have Internet access this way but the principle is already there via your existing relative affordable infrastructure.
I got a visa gift card for Christmas I’m spending on LORA today. Western NY here. Probably gonna build some decent nodes at home and office. Will add to the map to help encourage others.
Not to discourage you, and I’m not sure if LORA you’re referring to is LORA-WAN that we were implementing at my employer, but we abandoned it for cost and manufacturer support (firmware support issues).
Not LoRaWAN just plain LoRa much simpler.
Just installed two Bluetooth mesh messaging apps on my phone, just in case. Is there one y’all recommend? Are BIT and Berkanan ok?
I already have too many hobbies, not going to get into amateur radio. I guess I’ll go buy a battery powered radio receiver when I get a chance, or one with a crank.
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