I sometimes think of this when leftists, particularly tankies, attack (presumably all) non-far-right non-leftists for dithering, or allegedly dithering, on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict;
but yeah, Joe Biden was/is bad for supporting Israel. Ditto Harris, Bill Maher, and Fetterman.
And just to be clear, we’re not attacking them for “dithering” on the Palestine genocide (not “conflict”, genocide); we’re attacking them for actively and consistently supporting the genocide. The idea that they’re just “dithering” is a lie liberals tell themselves so they can keep supporting genocidal fascists without feeling bad about themselves.
You know somebody has completely run out of arguments when they start doing the “So according to you , [something that in no way resembles anything say said]” thing.
I think it’s indifference rather than love, but yeah, he could have done so much with so little to stop it, with little risk of the Democrats losing the White House in 2024. Ditto Harris. (Ditto Trump—health concerns aside, he still has 45 months to at least try to redeem himself a bit.)
Many Americans would rather vote for a leader who supports Israeli genocide of Palestinians a little less than the Republican candidate who supports Israeli genocide of Palestinians a little more. It’s why if I was American, I’d support neither Democrats nor Republicans.
Ok…? What does any of that have to do with the point at hand?
It’s also not true, Biden has been a hard core supporter of Israel’s genocide for decades, the idea that he supports it less than the Republicans is just genocide apologia.
Yeah apparently there was something going on where USSR and Jews had an amicable relationship because of the history of Jewish people always existing in Russia, and them saving them from nazi Germany
So my history on Eastern Europe is quite lacking and this might be completely wrong but from what I recall Russia conquered a few countries like Poland and Ukraine and suddenly they had Jews living in them. Then Russia started doing Pogroms (The word Pogrom was inventen in Russia). Knowing that, I would assume that German Jews at that time would not be very warm to Russian conquest but I really don’t have enough historical knowledge on the subject.
Yes, would you be interested in starting a separate thread for further discussion? I’d also like to clear up my fuzziness. As a US-ian educated before education was quite as bad as it is now, I wouldn’t have known about Herzl’s attitudes that influenced his work, nor the Balfour agreement, had it not come up for an online discussion that came up with regard to Israel and Palestine in the late nineties or early aughts.
I feel like if we started a thread discussing this it would be like two AI’s hallucinating against eachother. I’m also not very interested in Herzls backstory, for the simple reason that he saw the Palestinians the same way (or even worse) as the Europeans treated the Jews.
Herzl himself also was a very rich dude from a rich family and he certainly didn’t face any of the suffering or antisemtism which other Jews faced at the time.
I feel like if we started a thread discussing this it would be like two AI’s hallucinating against eachother.
I certainly can understand that, while also wanting to get to the bottom of this! I’ll probably start a new thread about it, but not right now.
Regarding his back story, I find it immensely interesting in that he was racist all around.
Herzl himself also was a very rich dude from a rich family and he certainly didn’t face any of the suffering or antisemtism which other Jews faced at the time.
Oh wow! You writing that struck like lightning! Maybe his racism against Jews and Palestinians boils down to classism.
Afaict, it’s because Herzl was an antisemetic Jew. He considered himself one of the good ones and Balfour made relocation more expedient. This isn’t blaming the Jews suffering under the Reich for flight rather than flight. They found themselves in an impossible situation, otherwise, afaict.
A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than of any other ethnic, religious or political minority in Germany; around 12,000 died in the fighting.[41][42]
Many German Jews supported the war out of patriotism; like many Germans, they viewed Germany’s actions as defensive in nature and even left-liberal Jews believed Germany was responding to the actions of other countries, particularly Russia. For many Jews it was never a question as to whether or not they would stand behind Germany, it was simply a given that they would. The fact that the enemy was Russia also gave an additional reason for German Jews to support the war; Tsarist Russia was regarded as the oppressor in the eyes of German Jews for its pogroms and for many German Jews, the war against Russia would become a sort of holy war. While there was partially a desire for vengeance, for many Jews ensuring Russia’s Jewish population was saved from a life of servitude was equally important – one German-Jewish publication stated “We are fighting to protect our holy fatherland, to rescue European culture and to liberate our brothers in the east.”[43][44] War fervour was as common amongst Jewish communities as it was amongst ethnic Germans ones. The main Jewish organisation in Germany, the Central Association of German Citizens of the Jewish Faith, declared unconditional support for the war and when 5 August was declared by the Kaiser to be a day of patriotic prayer, synagogues across Germany surged with visitors and filled with patriotic prayers and nationalistic speeches.[45]
Theodor Herzl[a] (2 May 1860 – 3 July 1904)[3] was an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and lawyer who was the father of modern political Zionism. Herzl formed the Zionist Organization and promoted Jewish immigration to Palestine in an effort to form a Jewish state. Due to his Zionist work, he is known in Hebrew as Chozeh HaMedinah (חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה), lit. ‘Visionary of the State’.[4][5] He is specifically mentioned in the Israeli Declaration of Independence and is officially referred to as “the spiritual father of the Jewish State”.[6]
Were I to sum up the Basel Congress in a word — which I shall guard against pronouncing publicly — it would be this: At Basel, I founded the Jewish State. If I said this out loud today, I would be answered by universal laughter. Perhaps in five years, certainly in fifty, everyone will know it.
Herzl Diary entry (3 September 1897), a few days after the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, as quoted in 'Nonstate Nations in International Politics: Comparative System Analyses (1977) by Judy S. Bertelsen, p. 37; 50 years after writing this in his diary, the state of Israel was established.
I feel it would be helpful to me to have a conversation regarding this, at some point, at least clear up some of my own confusion, but probably not itt.
How Chase Oliver would handle Israel | Centre Stage shorts
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZUKEznaw8aU
Oh, and the USSR—under Stalin—was the first country to recognize the Zionist state of Israel.
The USSR and Stalin were bad, whats your point? Can you say the same of biden and condemn him?
I sometimes think of this when leftists, particularly tankies, attack (presumably all) non-far-right non-leftists for dithering, or allegedly dithering, on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict;
but yeah, Joe Biden was/is bad for supporting Israel. Ditto Harris, Bill Maher, and Fetterman.
And just to be clear, we’re not attacking them for “dithering” on the Palestine genocide (not “conflict”, genocide); we’re attacking them for actively and consistently supporting the genocide. The idea that they’re just “dithering” is a lie liberals tell themselves so they can keep supporting genocidal fascists without feeling bad about themselves.
So according to you, there are no non-leftists who oppose the genocide of Palestinians.
You know somebody has completely run out of arguments when they start doing the “So according to you , [something that in no way resembles anything say said]” thing.
I’ll take that as a “Yes, no non-leftists oppose the genocide of Palestinians.”
OK. I can’t stop you from ignoring what I said and making up your own unrelated statement in your imagination.
I’ll put it in question form.
Do you believe that there are no non-leftists who oppose the genocide of Palestinians?
Do you believe that there are liberals who oppose the genocide of Palestinians?
Whataboutism
I suppose some of it, yes; but still, maybe tankies shouldn’t generalize too much.
You say, generalising
Yes, I suppose.
Yeah Biden absolutely could’ve withheld aid and ended the genocide with 1 phone call but he loves genocide too much
I think it’s indifference rather than love, but yeah, he could have done so much with so little to stop it, with little risk of the Democrats losing the White House in 2024. Ditto Harris. (Ditto Trump—health concerns aside, he still has 45 months to at least try to redeem himself a bit.)
Biden has a life time of publicly loving the genocidal state of Israel.
I suppose; but many Americans preferred him to Trump.
Ok, what’s your point?
Many Americans would rather vote for a leader who supports Israeli genocide of Palestinians a little less than the Republican candidate who supports Israeli genocide of Palestinians a little more. It’s why if I was American, I’d support neither Democrats nor Republicans.
Ok…? What does any of that have to do with the point at hand?
It’s also not true, Biden has been a hard core supporter of Israel’s genocide for decades, the idea that he supports it less than the Republicans is just genocide apologia.
Then by your definition, I’m an apologist for genocide.
The Leahy law required that he withhold arms sales.
He broke the law for netanyahu.
Then I suppose he can be prosecuted.
By whom?
Presumably an American court.
Neither democrats nor republicans are willing to prosecute, so the law is meaningless.
Lucky you.
I’m not sure about Republicans.
Yeah apparently there was something going on where USSR and Jews had an amicable relationship because of the history of Jewish people always existing in Russia, and them saving them from nazi Germany
Did you get that in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
Pretty sure Russia was Pogrom king and they wanted to get rid of the Jews too.
Didn’t German Jews support Germany in WWI as they saw it as less antisemitic than Russia?
So my history on Eastern Europe is quite lacking and this might be completely wrong but from what I recall Russia conquered a few countries like Poland and Ukraine and suddenly they had Jews living in them. Then Russia started doing Pogroms (The word Pogrom was inventen in Russia). Knowing that, I would assume that German Jews at that time would not be very warm to Russian conquest but I really don’t have enough historical knowledge on the subject.
Yes, would you be interested in starting a separate thread for further discussion? I’d also like to clear up my fuzziness. As a US-ian educated before education was quite as bad as it is now, I wouldn’t have known about Herzl’s attitudes that influenced his work, nor the Balfour agreement, had it not come up for an online discussion that came up with regard to Israel and Palestine in the late nineties or early aughts.
I feel like if we started a thread discussing this it would be like two AI’s hallucinating against eachother. I’m also not very interested in Herzls backstory, for the simple reason that he saw the Palestinians the same way (or even worse) as the Europeans treated the Jews.
Herzl himself also was a very rich dude from a rich family and he certainly didn’t face any of the suffering or antisemtism which other Jews faced at the time.
I certainly can understand that, while also wanting to get to the bottom of this! I’ll probably start a new thread about it, but not right now.
Regarding his back story, I find it immensely interesting in that he was racist all around.
Oh wow! You writing that struck like lightning! Maybe his racism against Jews and Palestinians boils down to classism.
Me neither. 😁
But yeah, that’s kind of my take on it too. Thanks for your reply. 🙂
Afaict, it’s because Herzl was an antisemetic Jew. He considered himself one of the good ones and Balfour made relocation more expedient. This isn’t blaming the Jews suffering under the Reich for flight rather than flight. They found themselves in an impossible situation, otherwise, afaict.
Apparently Herzl died 10 years before WWI.
FWIW:
wp:History of the Jews in Germany#World War I
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl’s_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism
Yep.
his Wikiquote page:
wq:Theodor Herzl
I feel it would be helpful to me to have a conversation regarding this, at some point, at least clear up some of my own confusion, but probably not itt.