If God were all-powerful, he could create another all-powerful God who could destroy him against his will, thus making him less than all-powerful.
The mere idea of an all-powerful God contains a ton of paradoxes.
Libs: The religious concept of “free will” is fundamental to our ideology because it justifies prisons, wars, exploitation, colonialism, etc. Historically it’s all the same thing.
I like to think of why people suffer or God allows it like this. Even if you don’t think there is a plan, 70 years on earth vs an infinity of bliss is a good deal.
I think of this too, and then I think God gave humans a brain to figure out what to do.
How dare you bring logic into god’s house!
No matter how well you point out the paradox (if God knows everything that will happen, free will doesn’t exist, because everything is predetermined, just like a fully written book), a significant portion of christians will simply ignore and keep circling between “but God gave us free will” and “God knows everything”
That is exactly true. Life is only about 3 things: food, reproduction and dealing with boredom. Humans add so many colours to that, that it looks like we do more than those 3 things so that’s where you might see free will.
I’m also sick of hearing people say, “God never gives you more than you can handle.”
I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.
There’s actually a specific christian worldview called Calvinism where the view is that god wanted Adam and Eve to eat the apple and God was the snake on the tree which means god wanted all the wars on earth if you believe that view.
Pish. Calvinism teaches that God was the serpent? You’re a bit off base there.
Waiting for reference. Other than a Chick tract.
Ok, I misrembered the details so my bad on that one. What it actually teaches was that god created the serpent, put the serpent in the garden, knew Adam and eve wouldn’t resist the serpent so god still wanted all the wars and misery in this world.
“Wanted” is a funny word. The idea that there’s something difficult to understand about a supreme being who is so far above us that he created not only us but the entire universe according to what’s revealed about him? That shouldn’t seem a strange idea.
Imagine if we met an advanced alien who had technology far beyond ours. We might not be able to understand a lot of the way they thought, spoke, or acted.
The thing is, it actually says that in the Bible.
Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet we keep wanting to subject Him not only to our reasoning, but to our language.
It’s not that diffcuilt to understand so I don’t know why you assumed I would find it diffcuilt to understand. I’m not that religious myself, I’m more agnostic but I’m happy to have respectful conversations about different viewpoints than mine.
There are a few verses which state god planned everything that would happen in this world. Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Ephesians 1:5 and 11 “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will… In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
So it’s not difficult to understand with these verses that in the lense of calvinism, god planned everything that would happen in this world and knew exactly what would happen.
Yes, we agree completely. I just meant the word “wanted” is pejorative. You can intend something without necessarily wanting it.
When he was little my son broke the growth plate off of his arm at the wrist. It was essential that it be pushed back into place. The doctor needed me to hold him still, to hold his arm still as he pushed that bone back on top where it belonged.
My son had a lot of pain. I didn’t want to hold him still while he endured that pain. But I intended to. I did it.
And all those events were planned under the lense of calvinism which you had no control of planning it yourself so predestination and no free will.
Well, Christianity presents us with many things with seemingly contradictory qualities that are nonetheless to be held in tension, and not resolved.
For instance, Jesus Himself is fully man, and fully God. Not half and half. No division, no partiality. Completely 100% a man. And completely 100% God.
Same with the Bible. Who wrote it? Humans, of course. Every word. AND…
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
There are earthly parallels as well. Light is both a wave and a particle (we’re still sorting that out). Schrödinger’s cat. There are lots of examples.
There’s nothing unusual about a situation where God is fully in control of everything and humans have free will. It’s just hard to wrap your head around.
The answer isn’t to say, “God can’t (or won’t) do anything about that.” That denies God’s power and goodness.
The answer is also not to say, “Since I’m God’s puppet I have no will or blame.” That denies our responsibility and sin.
The Bible is quite clear that both are true. God is powerful, good, and in control. And humans are capable, sinful, and responsible for their actions.
My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet if adam and eve had just eaten the fruit of immortality, apparently they would have been exactly like god. That’s also in the bible. It’s almost as if there are contradictory parts and it’s full of bunk…
Cults and organised religion - name a surprisingly compatible combo.
Free will is an illusion.
Did god not have the power to give us free will without also giving us evil?
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Had the power but opted not to: god is himself some part evil
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Didn’t have the power, did the best he could with the tools he had: god is not omnipotent.
Pick one.
I think it’s a misread to say it gave us evil. The garden is portrayed as being a paradise with a tree with knowledge. The man and the women, as they self-identified themselves to be, were both allowed agency to be themselves and be blessed without the burden of knowledge, so long as they did not eat the forbidden fruit. Both the man and the women independently made the conscious decision to break the rule given to them to not eat the fruit of knowledge. The actual sin was both the man and woman breaking their covenant with God, through the eating of the fruit. My take on this is that story is meant to show that God can help you and will help you, but if you choose to go against his will you have the face the consequences of that decision on your own. However, you can still seek forgiveness for your decisions and even be forgiven, but this doesn’t magically put everything back to the way things were before.
The story is more or less a cultural device to explain good and evil from the perspective of the early Israelite society. The story itself is rippled throughout the Bible in this way: God gives instructions, the people follow the instructions at first but then grow complacent, bad things happen because people stop following God’s instructions, and then one of the leaders of the tribe of Israel steps in to help get people back on the right path of following God’s instructions.
I’ll add that functionally Genesis is three serparate creation stories that were pulled into one book. Culturally, the early Israelites borrowed some of the elements of other creation stories of their time seen in other cultures such as the Babylonians. The first creation story is the seven days, the second is what we know as the story Adam and Eve, and the third was the story of the great flood.
A major problem I’ve always had with that story is the fact that it is predicated on the fact that Adam and Eve acted disobediently by eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. But what is disobedience? Is disobedience a form of evil? To disobey God would be evil if it was done with knowledge, correct? How could Adam and Eve have possibly known that what they were doing was evil if they had no knowledge of such? Why would God set the situation up to necessitate that Adam and Eve would eventually disobey his wishes if they had no knowledge of good and evil, and therefore no knowledge of how their actions would have an impact or how their actions would be considered wrong. If a 2 year old disobeys their parents it’s easy to brush off their behavior as just being ignorant, and Adam and Eve are effectively like the cosmic 2-year-old, totally incapable of understanding consequences, or righteousness, or disobedience. Fundamentally, the God that created the Garden of Eden must be evil because what he did is akin to me putting an infant in a room with a loaded bear trap and telling them not to touch it. They don’t understand the consequences, nor do they really understand what commands mean. Is it really the baby’s fault for getting caught in a bear trap if I am the one with superior agency and knowledge and I was the one that set the whole thing up in the first place? Who is really the evil one here?
God is often referred to as the Father, and if he is truly a father I would say that he fails miserably in that duty by the very fact that he put his children directly In harm’s way. Yes, it is the responsibility of the parent to put obstacles in the way of their children so that they can grow, but at the same time it is also the responsibility to protect them from grievous harm, and clearly he didn’t do this according to Genesis.
the third was the story of the great flood
And don’t forget the really fun part, where you can actually still see the three flood stories smashed into one if you look at the sentences.
I agree, since all the animals are seemingly posed as being remade on the ark and suddenly you have the first people walking the earth again after the flood.
Its not a misread, your interpretation skips the important parts. The problem with your interpretation is right here:
be blessed without the burden of knowledge
The actual sin was both the man and woman breaking their covenant with God,
The knowledge is “of good and evil.” Until eating they couldn’t know that breaking a covenant was wrong no matter what their god has told them. They did not know that they should listen to what their god said, the concept of “should/shouldn’t” was devoid of meaning to them. While they had free will, literally all actions were purposeless and the two would just bounce around the garden not knowing if they should actually listen to their god or not. This becomes more evident when you read further as well as look at the stories from neighboring cultures this was borrowed from.
Later in the chapter their god speaks to the other deities in the pantheon about how the humans must be cast out of the garden as having their new abilities, may find the tree of everlasting life and become as powerful as the rest of the gods and supernatural beings. The idea is that having knowledge of the ramifications of one’s actions and living forever would mean that humans would no longer be controlled by the gods. That having free will, knowing what is good and what is evil and being immune to the wrath of the gods would render them all powerful.
This narrative then follows that their god casts them out into the world riddled with pain and suffering and humans eventually lose their knowledge of the past and how their god has their thumb on them. This is why Satan, “The Accusor”, is called the bringer of light. As sin is defined as a transgression against god, Satan is there to show how the fall of man was truly an enslavement by their god. Rather than leave humans dumb bouncing around the garden or immune to suffering, their god keeps humans ensnared in this system of life, suffering and everlasting torment. the story of the garden is what makes their god relevant when they otherwise shouldn’t be.
Going by the Bible, it’s both. He acted with malice and proved himself to not be omnipotent many times.
Jod introduced the idea of freewill to the board.
Lucifer said “That’s a bad idea, chief. Free will would ruin them.”
Jod cast him out.
Humans fucked everything up.
Jod sent his CTO, Jesus to try and fix it. It went poorly.
Lucifer said " I told you so"
“What if you gave them free will AND ALSO gave them the knowledge of the true nature of existence, rather than relying on them figuring everything out via very obviously man-made religions?”
“Naw.”
Maybe god itself doesn’t have free will and is only acting according to a proscribed set of fundamental laws.
That’s the point - the christian god is presented as all powerful, all knowing, and all good. The existence of evil in our universe shows that to be a lie.
I think this is a really interesting read on the matter: https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
Christianity has gone completely off the rails and isn’t the answer, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t a god.
Life isn’t black and white. Also, Psalm 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. (Lucifer, for example)
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Well, since this is a religious discussion, I’m a Christian. It’s always God.
Job 1:6-12 very clearly shows God granting permission for Satan to test Job.
1 Kings 22:19-22 shows the “court in heaven” and God soliciting ideas from spirits for enticing Ahab to attack Ramoth Gilead, where he will die. When a good suggestion is made, God grants permission.
Exodus 10:1-2 states clearly that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to not let the slaves go, so that God could display his “signs” (plagues).
Satan is a liar, and the father of lies.
Romans 9:19-21 NIV
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Wow, sounds like a cruel deity that’s definitely not worthy of worship.
Hey, at least you’re judging based on the facts of what the Bible says. God is who He is. He’s not campaigning. You disagree with Him, but at least it’s really Him.
Of course, that puts you in the same position as Job. You want to judge God. You want to put him on trial. You disagree with Him.
And if you have the opportunity to question Him directly, you’ll say the same thing Job said.
I’m judging a fictional character based on how he’s characterized by the book he appears in. There may be a higher power, but the god of the Bible certainly ain’t it.
Certainly? You have a better candidate? Baal? Molech? Satan, perhaps?
You do you; pick a side, deny the battle, anything you choose.
I’m quite seriously suggesting that the God of the Bible, and specifically the Christian God, is is the most perfect God that could be imagined, and yet wholly unexpected as He is revealed. The God of the Bible soothes no one. He ruffles everyone’s feathers. He is pure perfect and exacting. Yet there is love and mercy there.
Now, His followers have done a lot to screw up that presentation. But that’s as it always has been. In the Old Testament, in Jesus’s day, and now, the people of God - even those with direct divine revelation - have been misrepresenting Him.
Joshua 24:15 NIV
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. [Or the gods of reason, science, and unbelief?] But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
Certainly? You have a better candidate? Baal? Molech? Satan, perhaps?
A rose by any other name…
Maeve like in The Boys? I’m unfamiliar with the name from anywhere else.
As in Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet. Sorry, I gotta move my butt. Have fun! Study the mystics, especially any flavor kabbalah!
Certainly. Any candidate that doesn’t have a traceable origin as being created by people would be a good start, which all the religions of the world do.
I’m quite seriously suggesting that the God of the Bible, and specifically the Christian God, is is the most perfect God that could be imagined
Yes, that’s what people of every religion say about their god. I’m guessing your parents are Christian?
“Traceable origin…as being created by people.” You’ve set quite a high bar for yourself, but I assume you would consider your traceability as…
Yes, nominally Christian. Raised in USA, fed cornbread and gospel music, prayin’ at baseball games.
Here’s an example of traceability. If the god of the bible were real, eternal, unchanging, etc., there would be no historical record of him being just another god in a pantheon until someone decided to make him THE god. This is just one example of many and you can do this with any god in any religion - there’s nothing notably special about Yahwah aside from how popular his worship became.
I asked because it’s especially suspicious if you have been raised from birth to believe in a god, even if it wasn’t a main focus. My intention isn’t to dissuade you from believing - I couldn’t do that even if I wanted to - but just to encourage you to see Christianity objectively, looking at its history and how it compares with other religions. If you choose to have faith regardless, that’s fine, and in fact is stronger than if you never questioned it at all. I just always prefer that people make an informed decision on things.
And if you have the opportunity to question Him directly, you’ll say the same thing Job said.
That would be what, “Why are you so weirdly obsessed with Leviathan?” after Job 41?
Haha, Leviathan was certainly the “big bad” in Job. I don’t know what creature was being referred to (maybe a species of large crocodile?) but yes, he gets a lot of air time.
No, I meant Job 42:3, “Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.”
Haha, Leviathan was certainly the “big bad” in Job.
To quote a work of fiction I particularly enjoyed, during a discussion between the characters on the Book of Job:
“You know,” said Bill Dodd, “what is Leviathan, anyway? Like a giant whale or something, right? So God is saying we need to be able to make whales submit to us and serve us and dance for us and stuff? Cause, I’ve been to Sea World. We have totally done that.”
“Leviathan is a giant sea dinosaur thing,” said Zoe Farr. “Like a plesiosaur. Look, it’s in the next chapter. It says he has scales and a strong neck.”
“And you don’t think if he really existed, we’d Jurassic Park the sucker?” asked Bill Dodd.
“It also says he breathes fire,” said Eli Foss.
“So,” proposed Erica, “if we can find a fire-breathing whale with scales and a neck, and we bring it to Sea World, then we win the Bible?”
I read Earthsea, and it is my professional opinion that Leviathan is a dragon. Which we know is, as they say in baseball, a “tough out.”
I would add that not every author is writing unbiased in the Bible. We know now for instance that some books near the end of the Bible were attributed to Paul may not have been written by him, but by some of the people under Paul in the early church. So adding parts about women not holding positions of authority within the Church more or less served to cement their own positions and authority for the early-Christians that were formalizing the religion.
Yep. That’s addressed in books the Council left out.
From my perspective, the Bible should have continued to been written forward, and included pieces of the issues Christians sought to address in their current times. I think an updated one would have spoken of the poorly of the actions taken by the church and followers alike through the ages, and would have followed people trying to do good in hard times.
Had to drop a friend when he told me that “God sent Trump to us to stop abortions”
Why did you drop them?
His perspective on the world went too deeply against mine. I couldn’t take the hypocrisy anymore.
Dunno. Dropping friends due to politics seems totally cringe. Civilized people should have the option of “let’s not talk about politics” instead of breaking up relationships.
When someone shows me they’re a terrible, ignorant person I act accordingly.
Like, did you meet a person who unironically blames satan for everything bad that’s happening to them?
Church dilemma - knowing the will of God vs affirming that God’s ways are inscrutable, According to convenience
