Stolen from @vmstan
More analysis from @wiredfire:
It’s nothing to do with [difficulties in using multiple platforms]. It’s to do with the massive backlash they got on Fedi for their CEO being all Trumpy and somewhat horrible right wing. So they’ve run away because they were made to feel unwelcome on account of us not letting their BS fly.
Original screenshot is of the bio of https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy and wasn’t a post (that confused me for a sec).
I’m out of the loop- what happened? Recently people were promoting Proton as an alternative to Gmail and Microsoft.
Owner of proton is a huge MAGA Trumper because he “stands up for the little guys”.
This is good news. It means we aren’t monitizeable enough.
I’m not on the exit proton bandwagon. All CEOs are awful and I don’t have the energy to do the vote-with-your-dollars ethical consumption dance every time we’re freshly reminded of that fact. Especially not with the only service out there that packages data integrity, privacy, and ease of use in a complete suite at the level that proton does.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say this a million times again, capitalism is simply not viable. The main mechanism to punish bad business practice (using a different business) also hurts the significantly weaker consumer; meaning it will almost never be used properly.
I point this out here because I agree with your stance and cannot stand the “vote with your wallet” nonsense people pretends works.
This makes it really difficult to navigate the privacy space because eventually a cornerstone like Proton is “corrupted” and we have no way to correct it. We seriously need people thinking about solutions to this problem, or we’ll be going nowhere fast.
If you might allow me to disagree with you slightly…
The key to this, as in many things, is balance; in ALL things. Voting with your wallet does work, its a form of influencing and controlling the direction of the capital. It just doesn’t work in a long term sense because people stop there; like boycotting. It is hard to boycott a company that has a monopoly on a market that has become a necessity, even if it’s only a necessity to a niche community.
The key is, that you spend on smaller businesses, that are closer to the consumer than at large conglomerates. If there is none for the market, create one and encourage people to support your business that doesn’t have any political ties yet. For example, I live in a capitol city, and my neighbor a few houses down has started a small chicken coop in their back yard; i began buying my eggs from them as its much cheaper and I don’t have to worry about my funds being reallocated in support of something that would harm me or my community as they are a part of my community. Also, I deliver pizza as a third job for a small, mom and pops place and encourage those political minded people to spend money there as the pizza is made with fresh ingredients and made there. Takes a bit longer but we are too small to allocate funds to political matters and organizations; we do small events for the schools in the community but that is about it.
Once said businesses start to grow too big, rinse and repeat. Find another small business and support them. As support dwindles from a company that is growing too large, their options become more and more limited.
This seems not to work due to peoples mindset and preferring convenience over meaningful spending; which is something that I know not how to combat. What say you, friends?
First off, I am happy that your community is functional and that (at least for now) the capitalist structure works for you.
The core of this issue lies in human-nature and incentive-structure. The thing is, majority of people never act as the ideal in any system. In fact most of the time, due to the often strict guidelines of systems, people act in bad faith. What this means is that any system, at all times, will have significant resistance to existing and will need sufficient guardrails to not fall apart. Why bring this up? Because capitalism has no guardrails.
The “start another business” argument is not viable because (unfortunately) most people do not have the capital nor expertise to compete. An extremely high number of people on Earth do not own businesses, and there is a reason for this.
The “rinse wash and repeat” argument also quickly falls apart because:
- The very very small population that has capital and expertise shrinks every time we do this
- The new businesses born are not likely to survive (based on startup failure rates)
- The more businesses, the harder it is to compete
A significant amount of industries around the world are effective monopolies, there is a reason for this. Low capital pool, low talent pool, high failure rates, and high competition - means that once you make it out of development hell, you are almost always unrivaled and can easily destroy/outlast your competitors.
Since we’re here, lets talk about incentive structure. Most people do not have disposable income, those that do are investors. In a system where money is the “goal”, the natural result is that the investors will be prioritized. This generally means that the end-user (me and you) are being exploited. Mom and Pop will not save you from the physics of money.
The only thing I’ve seen “work” is when there is a community of strong moral fiber that refuses to sell out their neighbor. This is why I said I am happy for you, because this is extremely rare.
As for the solution, any answer I give will be bad. This is a complex (not complicated!) issue and requires influential, smart, and rich people to work towards a goal for many years.
That said, I am giving a bad answer anyway. We need a way to “miniaturize” infrastructure, with the end goal being distributed (decentralized) infrastructure. The reason being that we need to decouple the government and monopolies from the market. This is obviously extremely difficult to do, but I think it can be done. We actually have a lot of the tools for this (3d printers, foss, internet, etc) but the direction, knowledge, and polish aren’t there.
Proton is a bandage solution to email being hijacked by Google and Microsoft - they used their infrastructure to turn an open protocol (email) into a closed implementation (you cant send email to your buddy without gmail). Proton is a middle ground where they respect us, but are also “in the club”. We wouldn’t need them if emails could simply be sent from my router to your router (tor has something like this).
I’m not too sure it’s as difficult as you are making it out to be. We see something similar with “black wall street” where black communities were committed to keeping their capital within their communities and black owned companies. We can even see this with the Amish and how they have survived as a community. I’m not completely sure if you can keep 100% of the capital within certain communities; but in a similar sense, we can at least attempt to be more meaningful with how and where we spend our money. The tech community chooses which company they support and do “business” with, similarly with fashion and many other things that aren’t completely necessary. I feel like that would at least be a start. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither will correcting the public’s spending habits. But it has been done and can be done again. There just needs to be the right incentive; to which, I’m not sure what that would be.
I agree with you, and yeah the convenience factor is in fact a huge problem and is highly exploited. The only thing I saw working are in fact laws to make the switch to another “service” more convenient (e.g. you have a messaging app? your protocol must be open source so that other clients should be possible by law, idk how feasible is this, but u get the idea).
Techies interested in privacy and fairness is just another target/focus group to be marketed to…
But even given that every company sucks(eventually) and every ceo is an asshole. there’s something to be said about about spreading out and e.g. using proton over gmail and other google services.they might both suck, but at least if it’s spread out, there’s not one asshole ceo that controls all our stuff at once. You can’t vote with your wallet, but preventing monopolies (the natural end game of a free market) by supporting smaller alternatives can still be worthwile. Not that it solves the underlying issues, but i think it can at least slow the decay a bit.
Yup. If there was an encrypted, federated solution that provided all of the services that proton does, even if half as polished, I’d absolutely consider switching. I’d even consider running my own node. All centralized solutions that see success also become over time the thing you want to flee.
Making quite a few ungrounded assumptions here. Maybe your platform is just shit?
Proton is dead
Any alternatives?
I found this site useful. The list of alternatives is very large.
From my looking around at other info and advice, I’d say that Posteo is the best one if you don’t have custom domains; and that mailbox.org or possibly Tuta mail is best if do need a custom domain. Tuta is probably best if you need it to be free.
Another solid option not on that list is fastmail.fm (which is Australian).
Does anyone know if Tuta has an alias email feature?
Kind of. If you sign up with their cheapest plan €3/month you get 15 email addresses included (so some can be aliases) or can also use a custom domain. If anyone wants my referral link you get some months free I think, but they will also give you a free email address with 5gb storage if I remember right.
gmail
(this is a joke dont hunt me down pls)
Hotmail is better. The authentication process and the junk filter is soooooo cool.
nahhh yahoo mail is objectively the best one
fuck proton. finally started moving to it from gmail like a month ago. then the ceo thing happened, now this. good thing i only changed email to a few places so i can immediately steer away…
Proton is going boots up.
Proving that a company is not a person. A person goes tits up when the boots go up.
Fsck em and feed em fish heads
The ONLY reason I have Proton email, is because my bank thinks it’s the only secure email in the world…
proton vpn, is mostly useless against reddit anyways, its not coincidence that the vpns are not working anymore and thier aggressive banning on reddit, or they angling for reddit allow only thier vpn to be used, they are probably getting some kind of deal from huffman.
You know I was like this close to getting proton VPN before this whole thing started. I’ve been researching for like 6 months to decide which one I was going to switch to. They were on the short list. Bullet dodged.
I just had signed up to de-Google as it looked like a good suite of drive/mail/vpn but I’ve just deleted the account citing this ass-hattery as the reason.
Mullvad
Ah yeah, located in Sweden, country known for the Pirates Bay scandal that may also soon introduce a law requiring apps to have backdoors to access user’s data. Great choice.
You owe it to yourself to research past the platitudes. Then you would know that they already got raided and the police left empty handed because there was nothing to find.
Sweden is also at this moment preparing to pass legislation that will require backdoors into encrypted services.
The government is preparing legislation, Parliament has yet to decide on it.
Looking at other Western countries and their history of privacy invading surveillance laws, how likely do you think it is that Sweden won’t pass it? Are you willing to bet your own money that they won’t?
I don’t hade to look to other countries, Swedens track record for enacting this kind of legislation is quite bad. But the process is still transparent and even if new legislation pass it won’t come into effect immediately. So taking actions at this stage is premature imo.
Yes? It’s a pretty small bet.
I get tired of being so right all of the time
Is it time to change VPN platforms?
Absolutely. Mullvad is way better.
How so?
it has a cool sounding name, of course!
Lmao a valid point, but I’m a function over form sort of guy
well, in that case, Proton has more servers, and also allows port forwarding. so don’t use mullvad if you’re planning on sailing the high seas.
ProtonVPN has more servers, so its less likely to be blocked than Mullvad or IVPN. When I was using ProtonVPN I see much less “Log in to prove you are not a bot” or the reddit snoo avatar getting mad at me for using a VPN (there are still Movies and TV discussions I’d like to read).
Nevertheless, I’m currently using IVPN, I’m not sure if I’m staying tho.
Also: For people in authoritarian countries (like actual ones that already censored the internet), it would be difficult to pay for a VPN since banks would also block the transaction and cryptocurrency is likely also banned, so ProtonVPN’s free tier is their only choice. (I’m not in a country that has censorship yet, but just want to mention that some people are in that situation)
Also Mullvad is slow, I recommend IVPN over Mullvad.
Mullvad, lad
Not surprising. Proton and their volunteer mods on /r/protonmail quash talk that doesn’t make them look good. Plus there are a bunch of fanboys willing to defend whatever Proton does.
It’s still one of the best services out there for people engaging in activities the US government disapproves of. Mullvad and Tuta are located in countries that work together with US intelligence as part of the 14 Eyes, and Sweden is also working on legislation to require backdoors into encrypted messaging. If you must use something other than Proton VPN out of some ideological bent, then Njalla or cryptostorm are the better VPN choices.
cryptostorm is a fast VPN that requires no account or other information, and access can be bought from resellers using crypto, making it impossible for cryptostorm to identify you out of all the people using their service, let alone turn over your data. I’ve used this VPN, and it was fast enough to play multiplayer shooters online.
Njalla is an infamous bullet-proof VPN and web host, that hosts several high profile piracy sites out of Costa Rica. They do not comply with demands for information or to take down services. It’s a top choice for people who plan on sailing the high seas.
Both of these services allow port forwarding, something Mullvad does not due to piracy.
Yeah, their Linux dev team consists of two people, who, I believe only handle Linux things as part of their responsibilities and there is no dedicated team. I’m not salty that people have been asking for a Linux drive client for 4 years and the only response came this year saying ‘there’s only two people we’re focused on mail and vpn clients at the moment’.
Not trying to take away from Yen saying dumb shit with the company account or any of the mounting criticisms they’ve earned of late. Just a point toward their explanation not actually being too far out of the realm of possibility. And the likelihood of their PR/Social Media team being similarly small to the point of being understaffed.
Like yeah, this is needlessly antagonistic and blunt? Sure, but that feels more down to bad copy than the actual intent and direction of a companies PR dept, right?
“Due to a need for consolidation in the face of limited resources we will no longer be able to maintain our current scope of social media presence. This account will remain active and be updated automatically but for the foreseeable future it will be unmonitored. Please join us on Reddit or contact support if you have any questions! Thanks Mastodon, toot on!”
Explains more clearly the logistical need to limit focus without disregarding the importance of the community. Someone hire me, I need a job. Leaves the account open to be reactivated some day and there’s no reason they couldn’t automate posting there.
I use ProtonVPN on Linux and I don’t even use a client. There’s Wireguard and OpenVPN right there.
Drive was mentioned, not vpn. The vpn client even works.
I was tempted to cancel after the CEO comments on politics, Reddit is a bit much though.
Reddit privacy policy is dog shit, having a company advertise privacy and use Reddit is comical
