Nato membership for Ukraine is a no go for Russia, whose approval is actually needed to end the war. Also neither the US or most of European countries keen on having Ukraine in EU, especially when the war is still going on. Zelensky is just fucking with everybody here and insulting everybody’s intelligence. He is not ready to step down, he is holding on for his dear life.
- Russia has no say on NATO membership they can grind their teeth and whine like a baby as much as they want.
It is assumed putini will instruct dumpy to block it anyway and they can’t be members until the war is over.
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Everything you see in regards to Ukraine for the next few months will be about setting up negotiations zelensky stepping down is part of that.
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Zelensky has been president for nearly 5 years most of that while at war, I don’t blame him in wanting to step down.
Russia has no say on NATO membership they can grind their teeth and whine like a baby as much as they want.
No, if or the EU leaders insists on Ukraine getting into Nato, then Russia will just keep the war going and end Ukraine as a state if they have to. They of course don’t want that burden, but they are very ready and capable of doing that. That is their veto regarding Ukrainian nato membership.
It’s even easier now that US is pulling out. Why would the Russians ever give concessions like that to Ukraine now? Is west going to sanction Russia even more? Give Ukraine more of the ever more anemic amounts of weapons?
Plus every European country knows that taking Ukraine into Nato while the war is going on is like vote if they want to escalate this thing over Ukraine into a hot war against Russia that will go nuclear. Ukrainians themselves of course want that outcome. For them it would be just more bodies dying with them and for them, since they can’t seem to accept anything else than their vision on total victory. These Zelensky’s idiotic words just confirm that even more. That is also why unless a miracle happens and despite the talk form Ukraine and EU leaders Ukraine is never getting into Nato. That’s just a fact. Ukraine lost, get over it. Than fuck “the orange man” and his team has some sense in this regard.
See my note on joining I noted the war had to be over.
As I also said this is all about negotiation stances no, what one side says vs the other in the run up to any deal.
A deal which is unlikely to be talked about seriously until after the summer when both sides can go on the offensive so they can be in a stronger position come winter and negotiations.
Wow, Russian bots are getting desperate to be crawling around in here.
Very useful of him. Ukraine needs leadership that can make peace with Russia, and still keep Kherson, Odessa, or leave up to referendums where they go. Zelensky wouldn’t win election anyway. War was obviously big mistake, and looking to US/west for “protection” or terrorism support is just too high of a price to pay.
Zelensky can’t be part of future of Ukraine, but it is very helpful for him to step down. Focus should be on trade instead of war.
The US will dispose of him well before that ever happens. He has outlived his usefulness to US empire.
Zelensky should have inquired about NATO guarantees before sending half his country into the meat grinder. The only guarantee NATO gives is a knife in the back. Ask the Kurds about it.
NATO (Stoltenberg) proudly rejected Putin’s offer to avoid the war by refusing to ever admit Ukraine. Was evil war from the start, and was never intended to end well for Ukraine.
Zelensky should have inquired about NATO guarantees before sending half his country into the meat grinder.
So, don’t defend your home from a foreign invader unless you’re allowed into NATO? This doesn’t make any sense.
Ukraine didn’t take peace deals throughout the war because they thought the Europeans and Americans had their backs, and would let them into NATO for security in the future.
Now the Ukrainians have lost hundreds of thousands of people, huge tracts of land, and are about to be looted so hard it will make the looting of Russia after the dissolution of the USSR look like a cake walk.
The Ukrainians fought for a lie. Rule no. 1 of geopolitics. NEVER trust the Europeans or Americans. They will always backstab you.
Ukraine is now destroyed, they are not in NATO. And they have a massive debt to America.
This makes a lot of sense 🤠👍
masterful gambit
I swear this thread is full of some of the dumbest comments in the history of Lemmy.
It’s full of Russian bots, many of these comments don’t make sense in any context except blind propaganda against Ukraine
Provide an example of a “Russian bot” in this thread, keen observer. State solid reasons why they are a bot, and why their comments are “blind propaganda against Ukraine”.
I can’t prove any user are bots, though that is my opinion because I can’t comprehend any other reason for their behaviour. And the blind propaganda is all the messages framing Zelensky as the cause of Ukraine’s destruction while willfully ignoring Russia’s huge involvement, or comments trying to imply he is hated by most Ukrainians (despite his approval rating being well over 50%).
To be clear, being critical of Zelensky is not propaganda, but willfully ignoring data and historical events for the sole benefit of Russia is.
Have you considered reading the comment instead of spamming Russian bot?
I do not endorse Putin invading Ukraine. And Putin is an authoritarian dictator.
I simply state that Ukraine was used as a pawn for NATO to weaken Russia. And this was predicted years ago. But anyone saying it was called a Russia bot.
Ukraine was caught between two evils and did not use its own leverage to get guarantees from NATO. Instead it blindly trusted hollow phrases of possible future NATO membership, refused ceasefire deals, and now is left holding the bag.
I did not even reply to you, I replied to another comment which has been since deleted, and was referring to comments across this whole comment section. (Eg: “when his countrymen hang him”, or “this scumbag is responsible for destroying the country”)
Spamming russian bot
You can check my comment history, I am fairly sure that is the first time I have ever referred to a user as a Russian bot. Hardly spamming.
I disagree with your original comment mostly because of the phrasing, because I think it implies that the only reason for Ukraine to be fighting was for NATO membership (as opposed to defending their home from invaders) but your clarification about Ukraine being stuck between two evils I can agree with, or at least find reasonable.
Edit: added examples above
Completely meaningless given that NATO requires unanimous agreement by all the existing members. Everybody knows that this will never happen, so basically what he’s saying is that he’ll cling on to power.
so basically what he’s saying is that he’ll cling on to power.
I find this to be a disingenuous framing. He clearly made that comment in service to the greater good of Ukraine, and I don’t know how being the leader of a nation facing imperial domination and constant war and death is something anyone would want to ‘cling’ to other than out of a sense of duty to the people he is representing.
If he gave a shit about the Ukraine he would’ve signed the Istanbul agreements two weeks into the war. This scumbag is responsible for destroying the country at the behest of the west. Meanwhile, Ukraine has been under imperial domination since 2014 when the legitimate government was overthrown there. Zelensky also isn’t representing anybody because he cancelled elections. The fact that there are still people who try to frame him as some here is absolutely surreal.
Thanks for daily dose of Russian misinformation propaganda.
Thanks for the daily dose of western liberal brain rot.
The more important part of his statement is “for peace”.
He had plenty of opportunities to achieve piece starting with implementing Minsk agreements before the war started, signing the agreement in Istanbul two weeks into the war, and numerous other opportunities after. Each time he rejected peace and continued facilitating the destruction of Ukraine.
just pointing out that NATO is not going to happen. Stepping down offer is mainly for peace by someone else.
But if NATO is never going to happen, then what he’s really saying is that he’s not stepping down. What he says is like me saying I’m going to quit my job tomorrow if I win the lottery, and that’s a more probable scenario.
I did not see quote live. I did see original reports as just peace, and then western reports as peace OR NATO. Now you/BBC, is just NATO headline.
I took it as simply admitting that he has lost the confidence of US and Russia.
If this really will never happen, Putin should promise the same, and see what happens. :)
That ship has sailed: Putin tried to get Russia into NATO decades ago.
Actions speak louder than words, and I believe Zelenskyy would. Great example of leadership.
Something like yesterday or so General Secretary of NATO said membership for Ukraine was never proposed. So it’s just empty posturing on the side of Zelensky.
This is just words.
This guy has balls the size of western Europe.
Good, they’ll weigh him down nicely enough when his countrymen hang him
I’d be surprised if your average Joe Ukrainian would want to lynch him. I could easily see him being lynched by some of the heavily armed Banderites who perceive his working towards peace as a stab in the back of the Ukrainian nation though.
And why would they do that?
Turning a country into a prison that people desperately try to escape by crossing the border through rivers/mountains (and often die trying), or by going to the “aggressor” controlled territories (remind me please, how many Poles or even better Jews were escaping their countries and fleeing to Germany during WW2 because it was safer there for them?) and people getting kidnapped, beaten, held in basemenets for days, tortured and even killed by the brave “recruitment officers” of Zelensky’s regime seems like good enough reason for me.
Especially the last part sounds a lot like propaganda. Do you have any sources on this? Preferably not from media that has ties to Russia.
So, the war has been going on for three fucking years already, and you still don’t know what’s actually going on there, all while supporting the regime? Well, I am not surprises even a little bit.
There are shitton of articles written by western media about the kidnappings, but I am sure they are all sponsored by Russia, right?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html?guccounter=1.
Here is a library of a fraction of videos about that (obviously faked and sponsored by Russia, because CNN told me Zelensky is good, this cannot be happening): https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents
Please. I did not pick any sides here with my question. I am not the person your argued with earlier.
I sure do understand that in a war people are drawn into service against their will, it always has been like that. War sucks, that is out of the question and it surely is not the fault of the nation that is under attack.
Thanks for your sources. Without sources, anyone can go around and say anything. Especially in this day and age.
it always has been like that.
People were always hunted down on the streets and packed into vans by masked people (there is an entire new word for that btw, “busification”) with the west cheering the man who does it as a great democratic leader? Huh.
it surely is not the fault of the nation that is under attack.
But it is surely the fault of the people being kidnapped, beaten, tortured and killed, right? I mean, you wouldn’t support this happening to innocent people who never wronged you?
